The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts Diesel conversion for 47-53 2 ton

Didn't think this fit into HIPRO because it's only Big Bolt.
Looking to put a diesel in.
major requirements - must fit into a COE (very space restricted). Must be a Quiet engine. Can't take those Dodge pickup's that sound like a stone crusher, can't carry on a conversation within 12 feet of one at idle.
Has anyone installed one that will fit the bill?

If the noise is a serious problem then you'll have to go quite new on your engine options. Multiple injections per power stroke and other electronic wizardry helps the new engines run smoother and quieter than the older diesel engines.

Cummins has a nice little 4 cylinder nearly available for repowers, check it out here
https://cumminsengines.com/repower

That'd be OK I think for just driving the truck around.
However if you plan to use it like a 2 ton truck then you'll need more power. Cummins will or plans to release a I6 or V8 also specifically for repowers, but after they launch the I4.

For older or used engines your best bet will be the Cummins 6BT. Your choice on how new, if common rail and computers or just a little computers with the 24 valve engine form about 1999, or no computers with 98 and earlier.

Sound deadening products can do a nice job reducing the noise in the cab.

We put a 99 Cummins 24V with a later model Dodge 6 speed in a 2005 F250 and it has been a very nice swap. It is a little louder in the cab but drives so much nicer and pulls a trailer like the 5.4L gas never could. The increased fuel mileage is much appreciated too.

I also have experience with the Detroit Diesel 53 series for repowers/swaps but they're not even close to quiet. They are however remarkable engines, well made and designed, easy to work on, and lots of accessories and parts variations and interchangeability to help them fit in most anything pretty cleanly. I have several friends with them in modern pickups and they are no louder in the cab than our F250 with the Cummins (which has no additional sound deadening with the 5.9 swap).

A V engine will be tight in the old COE unless it is behind the cab but that introduces perhaps as many problems as it solves.
The inline 6 or 4 cylinders will be logical choices. Cummins being the most popular will make for an easier swap than some lesser known and used diesel swap engine, Deutz, Kubota, JD, and any other primarily industrial engine.

Grigg

Jim, leave the factory exhaust alone and the Cummins is as quiet as you will find. Much quieter than a Ferd. No experience with a Duramax so it might be an option. Diesels are noisy just no way around it. Sounds like a fun project that several on here have done. Do a search and send some PM's to the original posters for their experience. Good luck!

Common rail Cummins are noticely quieter, require a computer, cost more.

Ed

I was thinking about the Cummins ISF3.8, but even the ISF 2.8 has higher outputs than the original 96hp and 200 ftlb (both gross)
That repower kit is interesting, 160hp/267lbft.
Coupled to a multi speed automatic and the original 2 speed rear if you really have to pull out of a hole.

You'd need pretty healthy overdrive to live with 6.17 or there about rear axle gears even with 38" tires. Or low expectations on speed.
Speed calculator here
http://www.onlineconversion.com/bigger_tires.htm

I hadn't looked at transmissions yet. Good catch.
The 2.8 should be fine with a .70 OD like the 2 ton with the 700R4. But I had missed that the 3.8 is governed so low! That was just first glance. I wonder what transmission they recommend for on highway use?

Is the rumor true (heard it over on Steel Soldiers ...) that those new Cummins repower I4's are Oriental?

I'm not sure, but if they stand behind them and if they do as well as pretty much all of their other engines it might not be an important issue. None the less it'd be nice if they are/were US made.

In any case it's great they're embracing and catering to the diesel swap community who are heavy users of Cummins. 50 state legal plug and play modern engine is a nice offering, and looking forward to other models.

Manual transmissions you might consider probably won't have OD gear any better than 0.73.
The Allison automatics with double OD gears are usually 0.6somehing in high.

Certain it will be an automatic. Can't do much better than an Allison

Jim, first off I'm a Dodge truck/Cummins guy. Rebuilt a couple of 5.9's and owned 3. Still have my 95 3500 with a turned up Cummins that's at 250k miles. No problems ever.

The above said, I became enamored with the Isuzu diesels a few years ago. They are easily sourced, easily adapted to automatic transmissions, turn more rpm than the Cummins and most importantly, much quieter. Also since the donor vehicle is a commercial truck they would certainly be up to powering a Big Bolt.

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?7348-Isuzu-4BD1T-Introduction. This is one link to a conversion using a 4BDIT, 3.9 engine. The bible for Isuzu conversions was located here;http://www.isuzudieselswapper.com/

However now the site is down. The developer, Dave in Florida was selling conversion kits and actually sold a new pickup on ebay that he'd converted to the Isuzu 3.9 diesel. Someone with internet skills could likely use the Way Back Machine site and pull up Dave's old information. Unfortunately that's not me.

My dream conversion has long been a late 80's early 90's Jeep Grand Wagoneer with the 3.9 Isuzu. Plenty of power and 30ish mpg.

I'm pretty sure there's a cure for that. Might be a 12-step.

moparguy: I became enamored with the Isuzu diesels a few years ago.[/quote] klhansen said; I'm pretty sure there's a cure for that. Might be a 12-step.

Cure....spend $15K PLUS!!!!, bust all knuckles a few times, use all my Big Boy words.....often. Drive off into the sunset a happy smiling old guy. Yep, that's the cure

Well, I'm pretty pleased with my decision two years ago to go with an Aisin over the Allison. And apparently, I'm not alone. It sure seems like most commercial 1-ton users (hotshots, etc) out there on the Interstates these days are running Aisin-equipped Rams. I don't see too many 40-foot car hauler trailers being pulled by GM/Allison trucks.

Just sayin'

Going from a gasser to a diesel, you also need to calculate the difference in rpm's. You don't wind an oil motor very high (for very long) so they spin the driveline slower, making the tranny and rear gearing even trickier. Cummins 4 & 6 BT's for example, like to stay around 1800 rpm. The 5th gen 2000 Allies are double OD at .71 & .61. Diesel swaps can be great but you have to do a lot of homework to get it right.

Best of luck and keep us informed...love those old COE's!

Yea, I was thinking the Allison 1000 would be the way to go (although there are a couple other brands offer the same gear ratios)
The new 2.8L Cummins are showing higher RPM curves than the previous BT's
The 4-6BT's are just too high on the noise scale for the client.
He's comparing everything to his brand new Chevy/GMC diesel pickups.

Moparguy, that Isuzu site is gone.

With the newer automatics they interface with the electronic engine controls, might not be as easy to mix and match as in the old days.
The Allison's although electronic can be run behind a mechanical engine with not much more than a TPS and the factory Allison computer with the appropriate tune. This was done factory in RV's and other applications with mechanical engines before everything soon became electronic.

I'd hope it's possible either factory or with aftermarket controller/tune for any other new automatic to play nice with any engine other than what it came on, it'd be nice but don't count on it. Similarly I don't know what the Cummins repower engines are capable of talking with and running as far as transmissions (and/or what you can get tech support to help accomplish).

If you get started down the Allison path and need help with the controller part I can point you to a shop in PA who has had great success with them behind various mechanical engine repowers and even some interfaced with some unexpected electronic engine controls, mostly all in pickup trucks.

First and formost, the size is issue. I talked to Cummins and, as expected, sales/customer service has zero information on the Repower package. They will have nothing until the day after the official release is made, if that soon. Can't get any dimensioned drawings. Am assuming it will be close to the ISF 2.8, but no guarantee, and haven't been able to find any drawings that reference dimensions from the crank center line on that one either. Companies have to understand that information is necessary up front.
The COE is so much more space restrictive than the conventional cab, I've already eliminated many gas engines from the possible list for being too wide. The taper in the front of the frame is a problem in all trucks, but the height is very critical in the COE.
A tall diesel could turn the cab into a 2 seater unless the motormount/pan area is narrow enough to drop through the frame.

If you can slide the engine back enough so the front axle is not in the way the engine can be lowered quite a lot.
Servicing it will be the big challenge in any location under a COE. Tilt cab?

Since the 4 cyl block is shorter than the 6 cyl original, I'm sure the axle won't be a problem. Thy to keep the bellhousing in the same relative position.
I was hoping to be able to set the block down between the frame rails so that the top of the taller diesel block wouldn't stick any higher into the cab. Without drawings, I don't know. Based on the old 4/6 BT dimensions it would have to be set back quite a ways before the taper of the frame would be wide enough to clear. That would put it so far back the engine would be partially under the seat. That would not be good.
Wish I could find drawings of the international ISF 2.8 or 3.8 engines as I think that is the family of the R2.8

I'd think they'd fit between the frame even up front where it tapers. I have a 4-53 Detroit in stock location in my 6400, same room between frame as the COE and it's not a narrow engine.

I find it hard to judge engine and frame fit with just drawings because both are complex shapes that actually fit better in and around each other than overall dimensions would suggest.
No substitute for a trial fit.

Went back to the other site where they were talking about this and found this link that may be of interest to you -- apparently, the new repower Cummins engines are designed for light trucks like Jeeps, Landcruisers, Landrovers, S-10's, etc.

Video from 2016 SEMA show

Wouldn't ~270 ft-lbs of torque be fairly underwhelming in a 2-ton truck application?

Interesting discussion at the M-37 site. One of the posters in that thread is the acknowledged expert on professional M-37 restoration, rebuilds and repowers, BTW.

That's why earlier I suggested it might be OK just driving around, but for hauling stuff a larger engine would be better.

What about the Deutz TCD series (Tier 4) or the Mitsubushi engines? Even though they are marketed as "industrial," wouldn't they make good repower candidates?

Just did some interesting reading here It seems Deutz makes some baby diesels about the same displacement but a whole lot more torque. SAE bell housings, too (RR ready )

Great discussion and lots of good input guys.
As far as the engine power rating goes, remember, the original 235 has 96HP and just about 200lb ft of torque. I took the original engine on the '48 2 ton, added a second carb and a 700R4 transmission (.69 OD) and it would do 70mph with a couple tons on it and pull a major load with no problem with the 2 speed in low.
The Repower diesel has 267 lb-ft and 160 hp at 3200.

Right, I think with that little diesel it'd do fine and drive better than stock but it's not going to compare to a new diesel pickup or even a somewhat more modern, say 70's or so 2 ton truck.

If you're looking for great performance in a useful 2 ton truck I'd be looking for at least a 6L engine with turbo, ideally newer than about mid 90's.

What are the goals, or intended use and expectations for the truck?

The client wants a "restored antique" truck that looks stock (but prettier)that can drive around and occasionally carry loads ranging from a bundle of 2x4's to a 7,000lb tractor.
Wants the creature comforts like automatic trans, comfortable quiet interior, and a no fuss modern engine.

I'd start looking at the 4BT or more modern ISB versions for power to haul that tractor. And more comfortably push all that wind out of the way of a COE going faster than originally intended.
If more often hauling that much weight, or very far, look to the 6BT and later versions.