The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop How do you turn them over by hand??

Hi Stovebolters....

I am outside hanging over the radiator trying to turn this truck over and it is giving me fits....It wont run for one and I cant even see around the huge harmonic balancer to even see if there is a nut there...my fan is maybe 1" from the back side of the radiator...

How do you folks turn these things over by hand???

Any insight would be a wonderful thing...

Also what is the trick to getting these things to turn over fast enough to start???

I am lost right now...

MikeC

Are you doing this alone?

Let's start with why it won't run; what have you tried?

Brad

To turn by hand I grab fan blade with one and by pushing on the belt about mid span add sufficient tension with the other.

To crank over well enough to start you need good clean battery cable connections and healthy size cables, I like 2/0 for 12V and would still be plenty for 6V. Don't overlook the ground cable either. If not concerned with originally the best location for ground cable is a starter mounting bolt.

What kind of health insurance do you have for a broken arm or joint dislocation. I haven't seen that happen but that's the story you hear. Old wives tale maybe.

The starter should be the easiest thing to get working right. I'd go that route.

Turn it over by hand? Pull the spark plugs to get rid of the compression fighting you. Tension the fan belt and turn away.

Lots of good recommendations in here.
Since you will need to have the starter to be fully functional in the end, I would start there. Big, clean cables, fresh battery, pull the plugs, let the starter turn it over for you. If it won't do it, you have some disassembly and trouble shooting to do, but at least you got the starter system taken care of.
Carl

You probably don't have the hand crank adapter on your vibration damper so this probably isn't helpful for your situation. I have skinned my knuckles on too many vehicles turning the fan so I used a rebuilt 216 damper on my 235 engine. I took an old socket that fit in the hand crank hole and drilled and welded a small rod crosswise in it some it resembles the end of a hand crank. Using extensions thru the front of the truck I can use a ratchet with a pipe extension to turn the engine over and can still see the valves or flyway hole. Much easier than trying to get the wife involved to work one end or the other.

Hi Stovebolters...

Yes I work alone...is there any other way???

So far...new battery...new starter....new wires...new plugs..rebuilt carb too...oh yeah...new fuel pump...new gas tank...new lines...new fuel filters(2) also...

My Willys Jeep had a bog bolt on the front of the crank...I could reach it with a 1/2" ratchet and turn it like a breeze..

I was hanging over the radiator tonight and last night too..trying to get the stupid thing to turn over by hand...I could just barely move it...I had the alternator in one hand and the fan belt in the other...grunting like a pig trying to get it to move...

I have run the new battery down twice trying to get it to fire...I did try once or twice to fire...but to no avail it would NOT stay running...

Any insight would be a wonderful thing...

Frustrated in Mechanicville NY

MikeC

A 3/4" square drive fits into the hole in the damper and engages enough of the opening to turn the engine. Use a 1/2"-3/4" drive adapter on a 1/2" drive ratchet and you should have enough leverage to turn the engine, assuming the ratchet/adapter combo has room to clear the radiator and the fan blades.

Have you made sure the points are clean and the gap is set correctly? How about static timing? Once the ignition system is working properly, the battery cables are the right size, and the connections are clean and tight, even a 6 volt system should start easily. There's no excuse at all for a 12V system not to start if it's set up correctly.
Jerry

A stock engine is just that way. Tiny gave you the best info in removing the spark plugs. It will turn over REAL easy then.

Get your starter working! End of problem. It's just one of the intricacies of this vintage. I feel your pain though!

I'm thinking along the same lines as Jerry. My experience with older engines has almost always been ignition related problems causing hard starting. Clean properly gapped points and a good condenser. Properly operating coil and good proper wiring. Spark, fuel and compression and off she goes.

So I am back at yea old Howard Knapp truck...trying to figure out how to put a square peg in a road hole...
square peg shown here

Someone told me to turn these trucks by hand...I needed a 3/4" socket adapter...I knew I had one...so I cleaned out the hole in the end of the harmonic balancer (I think thats the correct name right???)

round hole shown here....

I was told this is a 1958 Chevy 235 cu. in. Chevy car engine...is there a spanner wrench maybe that I can buy to turn this pig over???

I am missing something really simple here right??

Oh my gosh...I took the valve cover off and just removed the gasket...it was cork...I was like...holey family...I have not seen a cork gasket in years...cool this 1950's technology huh??

MikeC

Clean out those other two holes between the rivet looking heads. They could be threaded. Put bolts in them not so as to stick out too far on back side. Put a bar between the bolts and turn motor. It looks like that "balancer" is set up for a crank?
Mike, as your buddy and pal,
The bottom line here is I don't get what the heck you are trying to do? Why do you want to turn it by hand? To start it? To check points? It seems like you had it turning over and ran the batteries down. Did you say the starter does not work? What exactly is your problem and your goal here? There are only two ways to turn it over for starting, the starter or push it. NOT by hand. We need to know if it fired at all. If it did what did it do then? You need to concentrate on checking Compression, Spark and Fuel first. That can all be checked with plugs out, to save the battery/starter stress, as said by several posters already. (The three "F's" of troubleshooting.)
Can you please forget the turning by hand gig and state what you want to accomplish so we can help.

well if it ran but not long, at least you know it an't frozen and it is firing,
could be several reasons why it wont stay running and dont think any would have anything to do with cranking it by hand..

dirt in filter, bad gas, no gas, carb stopped up , bad fuel pump, etc

Looks like your harmonic balance is different from my 54 235 and 49 216. They were apparantly made to accept a hand crank and your 58 doesn't look to have that capability.
54 harmonic balance

As posted you could take two 5/16's (I believe) bolts and thread them into those two threaded holes in the balance and use a pry bar to rotate.

Here's a pic of the timing hole above the starter, the pointer is visible in the center.
timing hole

Good luck
Dave

take the spark plugs out, and take it out of gear?

Hi Bartomas

Yes I checked the compression...cylinder 1= 120 lbs, 2=115, 3=0, 4=0, 5=145 and 6=30 lbs....so I tore off the head and sent it to the machine shop...gotta call on Thursday...looks like about $780.00 plus tax...12 new valves...4 new pushrods too...

I want to set the engine up at TDC so I can check the point gap...the only way I know of is set on cylinder #1...is that true??

plugs and wires are all new...new cap and rotor too...

My dad told me years ago...you are a good parts replacer...I agree...I can turn wrenches as long as know what I am doing....I cant trouble shoot worth a darn tho...

thanks for your patience on here...I am dumb as dirt when it comes to this stuff....

MikeC

#1 cyl at the top and BB in the window puts the #1 in the right spot for tdc static timing.

Just put the bolts in my harmonic balancer as described above in another post (my engine is currently on a stand and am asking for guidance in the reinstallation of the harmonic balancer). Used a bar under one bolt and over top of the second bolt and was able to turn the engine by hand.

The simplest way is to use a pry bar or a big screwdriver between the flywheel teeth and the edge of the bell housing. You can roll it over one tooth at a time that way as you watch for the timing marks to appear in the hole above the starter. Be sure you're turning the crankshaft clockwise as you watch the harmonic balancer. Be aware that the pointer and the BB in the flywheel align twice- - -once when the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke, and again when the #6 is at TDC on the compression stroke, one turn of the crankshaft later. If you haven't disturbed the position of the distributor, make sure the rotor is pointing toward the #1 plug wire when the BB aligns with the pointer.
Jerry

MikeC / Howard Knapp truck - details like removing the head, if included in the post (or chronologically), really help folks who are trying to help you understand what is going on. It can also really help with the "working alone" syndrome most of us have to deal with.

I had to learn to remember to include as much information as possible when I asked questions. The Chief Bartomas is most helpful in this regard. Good luck & don't let yourself get too frustrated- your diagnosis skills will also improve by providing more information. (Mine do, anyway)

Brad

You had better learn how to spell "bartamos", lest the Chief goes on the warpath!
Carl

You are not as you said, you are doing fine. Didn't know you were rebuilding the top. Should run like a Pfaff sewing machine.

I can spell; I didn't know if MikeC knew something I did not.

For educational purposes, I'll ask this: with the cylinder head removed on the subject 1958 235 ci engine, would the inability to turn it over by hand maybe just mean the engine needs some oil squirted on the cylinder walls? Let it sit for an urban dictionary minute?

And, MikeC- don't let my oil-squirting question derail the Pfaff you are already on with your diagnosing.

Brad

Depending on how badly it's rusted, things like valve lifters and/or piston rings can make an engine difficult to turn. I'd soak the cylinders and lifters down with penetrating oil like Kroil, PB Blaster, or an ATF/Acetone mixture for several days, then either spin the engine with the starter or use a pry bar on it. With the head off, you can also roll the pistons to the bottom of their travel and use a hone in the upper part of the cylinders, but then you have to do a thorough cleaning job to remove the residual hone grit. Once it makes a couple of full turns, it should gradually free up and turn more easily.
Jerry

The head should be done hoping this week...almost $900.00....:(

Yikes...

Did they at least use a little K-Y jelly?
Jerry