Hey guys, I actually enjoy reading all the comments and I know that the answers are somewhere in the discussions. I use what I can and throw the other in the garbage.
.... However, this is not the greasy spoon, none of you are "newbies" so lets all get over it, learn, evaluate, educate, and move on before some moderator intervenes, OK. Agree to disagree but lets move forward. (should keep my mouth shut)
We're all pilgrims with ALL this stuff, some may be more seasoned than others, but we ALL can learn from each other. It may be different and unintended lessons, but learning none the less. So, let's keep an open mind and try to help with a smile.
I'd never considered the possibility of doing an O2 sensor on Sparky the '46, ,now I'm pondering the possibilities. Never would have happened before, and may not, but, at least the mind stretch may add to keeping from getting the dreaded "old timers disease" at bay for a day more?
I started this thread in thanking the guys who inspired the idea and it got me to thinking we could use O2 sensors on these old stovebolts to really narrow down lean vs rich issues.
I experienced very very rich issues on my test engine last month when I installed what I thought was a mild performance cam and it turned out to be totally wrong for the engine so I had to tear it down and start over. The cam caused a very sooty condition. I had thick nasty soot everywhere. After the cam was replaced, all of the conditions for a nice running engine were met, but I still wanted a better idea of just how lean or rich things were running.
The O2 sensor thread was perfect and at the perfect time. Me not having any idea what an O2 sensor even was a few weeks ago let alone how it works, just welded in the bung TWICE (you need to remember to put the flange before the bung), screwed it in place and put a meter on it. Little did I know there is controversy about running it without an ECM. Scholars, Professionals, and Edumacated people who never tested a narrow band O2 sensor without an ECM swear the signal is not viewable with any meaning with a multimeter. Oh contraire! I invite anyone with $20 to get a Standard Motor Products SG-5 O2 sensor and see for yourself.
There is nothing more gratifying and wonderful on so many different levels than discovering things that all these professionals missed entirely. We ALL win because that myth has been put to rest forever! Testing is complete, repeatable, and can be done by anyone with the information I provided on the website about how I went about it.
There should be a way an original poster can just ban someone from posting to their thread. Especially when you know that all the other person ever provides anyone is a complete waste of time. How many articles has Mr Driveby ever written? It could be hundreds. But how many has he shared? When some of us are looking for answers, and all he is doing is throwing mud, I question why he is here. Why not help with the answers that are being sought for a particular thread, rather than telling everyone they are stupid? I agree that Mr Driveby IS disagreeable and I have no intention from this day forward of letting him get away with bullying and mud slinging. It ends now. It's good to hear from you Alvin and I feel your sentiment, live by it, and wish things were different, but that is out of my control.
I want to hear more about using the wide band sensor and I would REALLY like to know what signals the sensor puts out. I have a very nice Oscope and other various pieces of electronic test equipment for this purpose. I insist on NO ECM because I do not know which one I need yet and want to understand each system it handles one at a time before laying out the dollars. This seems logical to me. I think it does to any sane person.
If I offended anyone in my attempt to get rid of the riff raff I apologize, but this has to stop. This same person has been a cancer on this forum for years now and has nothing nice to say about anyone. My momma always told me to say something nice or don't say anything at all. The problem with her theory is she took for granted that EVERYONE would follow those rules. Someone has to stand up for truth, justice and the American way!
I wonder how many people over the years were so upset with contrite and sarcastic answers that they left and never came back? I know of a few who will not come here because of that, and I keep telling them to give it another chance, that maybe its an acquired taste. There are people who feel VERY offput at MY defending my right to speak without being lambasted, but everyone who knows me personally KNOWS that I help people. Its what I do. I just can't look the other way anymore. Can we keep MY THREAD on track now?
I contemplated installing a wideband af sensor years ago when I was tinkering with dual stock carbs. It was my way of trying to teach myself more about how each change might affect the mixture and how it changes when driving this engine. Since then I changed to different style of carbs added a pcv valve, added a fuel vapour canister and did other minor tweaks. Granted the canister is to ported vacuum I still think iI can benefit from seeing what's going on better from each bank of three cylinders. After installing the new carbs I thought they were tuned right and everything ran ok but the back three plugs especially the rear 2 were much darker than the rest. Turns out the rear carb was too rich and it favoured the last 3 cylinders due to the intake design. After adjusting it all the plugs are now the same. Having the af sensor then would of been handy back then to help pic up on that.
I'm still learning new things about this engine every week. Some of us don't have the 30 plus years under our belts working with them and can't just perfectly tune them by walking up to them and smiling. Some people might benefit from what some others call pointless means of collecting information. i think I'm nicely tuned right now but after installing a af gauge I might get some interesting info back that might help me learn to tune better.
Wolf, I would appreciate if you get that kit to let us know the part number of the sensor. I want to play with the output and see what useful information I can get out of it so that we are starting with square one and moving forward.
When I write How-To articles or get them from others, I try and make sure everyone at every level can understand them, then I have my email prominently flying across the page (literally) so people can get their questions about certain processes answered. With that in mind, I need to start with just the sensor. If I have to give up because I can't figure it out, at least an attempt was made.
Sparky.. who said "Is that you John Wayne, is this me?". John Wayne, Clint Eastwood and Capt Kirk. Thanks for the sentiment.
Alright.. please tell me what is wrong with the way the narrow band sensor works... I'm a bit tired so the narration is a little skippy, but this should help with the critics...
I thought the narrow band ones would only output 3 signals based on 3 types of voltages groups generated. One to say rich one for lean and another for ok.
The folks on the old-German sports car forum I frequent use a gauge kit, including the wideband sensor and dash-mounted meter. There are no connections to the ECU, which doesn't use this info. anyway, and the data aids in making tuning decisions. There's no reason why the same data can't, or won't, help in tuning a carburetor setup...single, double, or more. Personally, I want to know what the actual A/F ratio is at idle, at WOT, under load, with a dirty air filter, with a K&N filter, in summer, in winter, etc. I'll spring for the couple hundred to know at a glance. EDIT: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g2997/overview/ Now, since you've already started the testing, Deve, will you be trying different jet sizes to see the difference in the exhaust or in the fuel consumption?
Last edited by starfire4; 07/31/20158:47 PM.
If you can't fix it with a hammer and screwdriver, you need a bigger hammer. 1965 Chevy C10
I don't know what to tell you wolf. You hear all kinds of conjecture. This was my favorite:
"Doing sophisticated electronic stuff to a stovebolt engine is an exercise in futility, sort of like putting lipstick on a pig. Trying to measure exhaust O2 concentration with a multimeter- - - - -that's downright ludicrous since one of the diagnostic procedures scan tools monitor is how many times PER SECOND the sensor flip-flops across the median voltage, and if it slows down much, the sensor is deemed "lazy" and needs to be replaced. I hope the meter-reader has extraordinarily fast reading comprehension as the digital meter toggles through a bunch of gibberish numbers. Early automotive computer systems operated on a clock frequency (rate of information sampling) of 10 HZ. Newer ones upped the rate to 90 HZ. Good luck getting any useful info with a meter! LOL!"
3 voltages, everything above.. how about we change the rules a bit and just test and shoot some footage to back up what we do just to prove the critics like to talk.
Starfire, yes. I have all of the Jet sizes for the Roch B and plan on playing with that in the near future. This stuff takes time, so it may take awhile.
48, its a one wire sensor, so the wire in the center is multimeter positive and negative is sensor ground *engine ground is fine. No bias voltage, no goofiness, just take it off the sensor and read it. The proof it works is in the way the engine runs on both sides of stoic, and the plugs condition when you run it for awhile one way or the other.
Edit: 48, the science behind this has to do with molecules that create voltage based on the number of oxygen vs the number of gas. It can manufacture up to 1 volt. They figured out how to make 50% of its capacity mean Stoic or 14.7:1. The meter just reads what the sensor is producing on its own.
People like to make us think this is harder than it really is.
Last edited by Deve; 07/31/20158:55 PM. Reason: exp
OK I think I see without the bias voltage to act as a clamp removes the three stages of operation that a narrow band sensor would see going into a ECM. Thus making it act more like a wide band with variations from low to high based on lean to rich.
It is a useful setup/tool for adjustments of carb settings at idle.
Baking in the nice desert sun, breathing life back into a 48 3800 5 window.
Sure was an awful lot of curfluffle just to get a point across huh. I will be shaking my head for days over this one.
An associated issue is the HEI. The above video was done with a stock ignition. When I test the Jets and all, it will be with HEI and properly gapped plugs. If you look at the current fuel consumption numbers at http://devestechnet.com/Home/HEIgnition you can see what happens when you change the plug gap. Today in addition to the video, I also ran Stock Ignition numbers again using the E3 plugs and should have those impressive numbers up by tomorrow. You have to see some of this stuff to believe it, and my style has always been to write about it, but videos really do help in cases like these.
Everything I have for now is up on the site. Guys, we have alot of talent here. We need to learn how to use it and appreciate each others strengths and weaknesses and augment those areas in between. If you want truly superior results, we have to work together and put differences aside. If you want to truly make this site THE place to go for everything Vintage Chevy, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, please meet everyone halfway. Watch the video linked above and try to make the jump across the chasm... the one that says, I really do NOT know it all, and MAYBE someone else can contribute viable information too.
Do that and watch how fast things change. I am off the soapbox for the night. Thanks everyone!
