The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Fuel injection on warmed over 235

Wondering if anybody has added fuel injection to there inline,self learning tbi or retrofitted gm setup and how it worked out

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?threads/1950-gmc-450-firetruck.123538/
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?forums/injection-tech.75/
I added 89 GM 2 barrel TBI to my 50 GMC 450 series Firetruck with 270 ci 6. Used 302 military intake with adapter plate from Hamilton fuel injection. Also put on dual Fenton exhaust manifolds and modified stock distributor for HEI. Woke it up big time. 47 mph to 60 mph top speed. Good luck with yours. Bill at above link at Hamilton Fuel Injection is a tremendous source of info and parts. Jim
Also check out Deves post for converting Distributor to HEI. Very good post.

Just to clarify the previous post:
1. EFI was only 1 of the improvements
2. the conversion didn't improve mixture distribution between cylinders since the original manifold was used
3. IMO almost all of the EFI gain is due to reduced pumping loss and improved VE - which can easily be obtained with a larger carburetor.

Yes Bill is the fella to talk to. Even though I haven't actually done it. Mostly because of the cost, I have done considerable research, and there are aftermarket kits, you can use the junkyard parts (TBI) and unless you are trying to wring out every last ounce of power/mileage it seems pretty straightforward. Although it isn't as easy as changing a carburetor, it isn't the complete magical mystery that many people tend to think. You can use a complete engine management system as well, which controls the spark, and is actually the source of most of the power/efficiency gains. If you are going full out, you will need to spend some money on dyno time. My biggest problem right now is do I send in my ungodly expensive, ultra rare hilborn unit in for conversion to electronic injectors, or just try it as a mechanical. It isn't like I drive it a lot, and the shock value might be kind of fun. https://photos.google.com/u/0/album/AF1QipMoGNj4qH8HpPBzEwkzLtz2A2QWILeuQ1okuwbg

I had been looking at the Howell Injection Kit. I keep seeing them on a Land Cruiser, Jeep and AMC inline 6. But the interesting part it uses the GMC TBI. It looks like it would be a good fit for a 235 I6.
If I would go this way the Land Cruiser FJ-40 kit is almost a dead match to the 235 as the early years of the FJ-40 were built on the 235 design copy.
May just need a slight programing on the computer to match.

I like TBI but was wondering how much would be needed to figure out a fuel injected manifold setup.

With just a little more tinkering, it would be possible to go with a SEFI port injection setup, which makes a lot more sense than TBI. Since the stovebolt engines use siamesed ports, it wouldn't be true ported injection, but timing the injectors to match the firing order makes a lot more sense than just dumping the fuel into the middle of the manifold and hoping it finds its way where it's needed.
Jerry

If someone was to setup injectors on the ports then the Mega-squirt would be a simple method to control the injectors. Had played with injectors on a VW years back and this box is able to support 4-6-8-12cyl sequential.

It also can control TBI.

http://www.diyautotune.com/

there is also AEM,(the one I have been looking at) and electromotive, as well as the megasquirt, they would all work. There is probably several more. you could probably get away with 3 injectors, and fire them twice as often, since RPM is so low on these engines. But I don't know that to be a fact. It would depend a lot on the injector itself I would think. Either way it is extremely possible. And if you go with the aftermarket controller, the spark/timing control is already in the box as well. (well usually, you have to make sure the controller you look at has it, but most of them have a full complement of engine management tools.)

I like the idea of 6 injectors, Kind of thinking if a failure occurs would not loose two cylinders.
Also the idea I was tinkering on was cross fire injectors for the two siamese cylinders.
More good stuff to ponder on, if I could ever get to implementing it.

The early (mid-1970's) Volvos had a Bosch injection system that used an odd/even approach, triggering 3 injectors at a time every 1/2 turn of the distributor. There were two sets of points below the breaker plate, with a timed variable-ground system controlled by the ECM to control injection volume. It was an incredibly primitive system, prone to all sorts of maintenance nightmares, but pretty effective. On a stovebolt, a pretty simple camshaft position sensor could be used to synchronize a true sequential injector controller, or two sensors on the timing gear could be used to trigger a 3-injector setup. A plain old gutted-out carburetor could be used as a throttle body if a stock-appearing system is desired. Just plug up a few idle passageways, etc.
Jerry

Same Bosch that was in the early 70s VW and several other cars. I still have one of the old "control modules" stored some where and also have the Bosch test set if some one was looking for that stuff. Simple design, problem was aging and heat causes injector drift.

Do you remember the fuel injected 66 Volkswagen squareback and hatchback models that ran on the same clock frequency as CB radio? Truckers with linear amplifiers learned they could shut off the fuel injection by keying their mike as a VW got even with the cabs of their trucks. VW changed the frequencies in 67 and eliminated the problem!
Jerry

I look forward to someone making this happen. Be sure to document it carefully!

this has been done with about 100 pages of posts, kjhibbs, and billusn1 were the major contributing parties.

nice you posted that, added some more reading if I can find it in the search section.
But like so many topics here always great to see them come alive again as new folks and new ideas come with age.

Andyhall, confused yet. Deve, you look forward to what happening, EFI on stovebolt or what everyone is talking about, sequential, multi port blah blah blah. There's a couple as stated that are running very well on TBI. Your distributor conversion is a good option for getting HEI and spark timing control with the GM TBI computer. It's a relatively easy and inexpensive conversion compared to the others mentioned. And as the saying goes, if a knuckle head like me can do it, anyone can. As a side BillS' TBI tune was pretty much spot on as found with real world driving and monitoring via laptop.Good luck however you go Andyhall.

Just looked at Deves distributor mod and testing post again. You would have to disconnect the vac advance can and lock down the centrifugal advance plate to use with TBI computer for spark timing control, as I did with my modified Oem distributor. Jim

Doing those things is no problem as long as the computer controls the advance correctly. The way it is modded you can take it apart as easily as if you had points in it.

I would like to see someone take the time to create a step-by-step how-to on this EFI thing. The reason is because once you get the ignition system ironed out correctly, it is VERY obvious that the weak link is a carb that spits gas into a single manifold that feeds 6 separate firing systems in an exacting sequence. On the other hand, it IS a stovebolt and maybe the expense or trouble is a bridge too far?

completely understand the gm setup as ive been a gm tech for 15 years,was more interested to see if someone was using a setup that is self learning like a FAST tbi setup,running a non computer controlled dist and seeing if that system could lean out enough to work efficiently

inliners.org

go make friends over there... they have done it.

-W

Won't go to the trouble of documenting the TBI setup other than what I've posted in my posts about it. All the info is very well documented for that at Bills site on Binder planet at links I posted. For the cost to benefit ratio, I thought TBI was worth the effort. I think my results show it was worth it. Can you spend more money for a more complicated setup- yeh. Will the results be worth it? In my opinion no. Deve, I do like your distributor mod. I saved my original points cam lobe to be able to go back to the Pertronics or points if desired as well. The only permanent mods were the extra screw holes in points plate and slotted the hole for wires to come out. I used points cam lobe from rusted froze up Chevy 6 from junkyard I spied while picking up TBI.

Also, I figured it would be cheaper to put a GM trailblazer inline 6 in if I was wanting Sequential FI.

The results are just what you want them to be, for me it is just going to be something to do. There is no right or wrong. I will go full engine management, since as far as I have been able to determine, the spark control is where the majority of the gains come from, it will be more of a challenge, and it will keep me busy for a while. At this point another $1500 for the system won't make a whole lot of difference. I first have to buy a tig welder to fab up a manifold, but then I will have a tig welder. This is just a journey, not necessarily a destination.

That's how I roll too. Just something new to learn and maybe contribute something new to the cause. Keep us posted. In testing the HEI it was quite obvious to me where the weak point in the system is now. Once the ignition is corrected, you can see a glaring problem with dumping gas into a hole and expecting it to get where it needs to go. I found a lot of fuel mileage improvement already, so not worried so much about that, but we can do better in fuel delivery. I couldn't believe what I found out about E3 spark plugs. If you put aside biases, its amazing what actual testing will prove. I would have been the first one to call BS until today. I need a TIG too!

http://hamiltonfuelinjection.com/products/1-throttle-body-injection-kit.aspx

That's Bills commercial site. He says he can do our 235's no problem. All you need is $1400 bucks! I was impressed with his message to me. He said go to Binderplanet and learn more about it first and do it yourself if you want. I like that attitude!

Deve, I did just that, buying just his adapter plate for the TBI and the computer cable to read the ECM from him. His support online is tremendous. I highly recommend visiting his information forums if thinking about any kind of EFI.

Deve, all,
Yes as has been mentioned in several threads on here, I do offer complete fuel and timing control EFI systems for the stovebolts. As was also mentioned, I have been helping guys with any make of engine perform a DIY conversion to EFI for about 15yrs now. There really isn't much that hasn't already been covered and documented in my write ups in the injection forum on bnderplanet.com.
Yes that means you will actually have to veer off your nice comfy website and click on another to get the info. But it has taken me years to document it all and it's not something I can just cut and paste to another site.
Yes I already have the distributor conversion to the HEI ignition for the stovebolt documented there.
I also have the single and the dual 1bbl conversions done.

And yes all the MPFI and SFI has all been discussed.
And as much as you would like to think, the MPFI on these old designed engines really do not make much difference over the TBI injection.
Turbos and EFI has also been discussed.

As a little additional input for the Siamesed port configuration, I am looking at using the Mercury Verado outboard injectors. They spray in a V pattern so they can be aimed to spray directly into both ports in a batch fire configuration.
Something to keep in mind is that MPFI was designed to meet the EPA emissions at idle. It eliminated the puddling at low rpms in the manifold that would cause a droplet of fuel to cause the failure. So MPFI is not for power but for emissions.
Older engines have way too many turns in the airsteam to take full advantage of MPFI.
I also do things just because I want to. But I have to look at ROI when developing systems for customers.

So if your looking for all the DIY stuff that UH-1 has been talking about then simply click the link provided.
You will go directly to a list of everything you need from parts required to every wire needed to connect and even the distr conversion for the stovebolt. Continue down the list and you will find step by step installation instructions and even data logging and basic tuning instructions for the complete DIYr.





http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?threads/start-here-fuel-injection-faq-start-here.47254/




And just to show what I do, here's a 261 in a 57 chevy. And it also has the 700r4 that is controlled with the EFI.

[IMG]http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/data/849/DSC00626.JPG[/IMG]

http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/data/849/DSC00625.JPG

http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/data/849/DSC02875_640x480_.jpg

And you can even find me on Face Book.
https://www.facebook.com/HamiltonFuelInjection?ref=aymt_homepage_panel