The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts engine #s and vin problems dmv Issues

I'm trying to register my 1946 1 1/2 ton flatbed and the title does not match my vin plate that is 6-PK-F-1070.It was titled as dca55503 and 3542997 which i know are engine #s Right? I figured out that the engine in it now is a 1959 235 truck engine. F7 14 A and 3764476. I cannot find the source for decoding these older #s( I found the site now I can't seem to find it again).How can I show the dmv that the truck I have fits this vin # that was never recorded on the pink slip. I down loaded some pages that show the vin is for a 1 1/2 ton truck built in oakland with a 160 inch wheel base, which is what I have. How can I show that the engine was swapped and no one changed the VIN#s. I dont want to spend any money until this gets cleared up.Thanks

go here, download the free PDF info kit for the 46 truck, it'll have the number conventions showing the GM vehicle ID number [vin, not VIN], print it out and you might have some backup talking to the DMV - similar info will be in the 46 shop manual [manuals found here] - might also find a listing that shows the current engine number is 59 to indicate the engine was replaced .... good luck, you might have to bow and scrape a bit and just settle for what they dictate

Bill

Thanks Bill for the great Chevy sites. I've never had a car or truck that had a bad vin# on the pink slip.These years of truck engines, after all these years, were replaced with the more modern version so easily but than the vin ID was lost as far as a pink slip was concerned.I dont think they could deny me a clean pink slip do you . Bob

Depending on your state, the DMV can be compelled by a judge to issue a new/correct title no matter what DMV says. In PA (and I'm sure other states) the title is not proof of ownership. Really, its not. Bill of sale is. Titles are only for asset tracking via title ID number.

No/bad titles are a very common issue (many states didn't require a title until the 1980's) because the 'pink slip' (aka the pink copy of a salesman pad) was enough to show ownership.

Anyway, google it. In PA you file a claim with a judge in court, advertise in a newspaper, and if no one can contest you facts, then judge will issue an order to compel the DMV to issue a title. Happens quite often.

Now,many states honor "Bonded" titles. You apply for a title,using the current numbers on the truck. The D.M.V. makes you advertise it, for 2 weeks to a month. Depending on different State law. If nobody claims your vehicle or engine,you should be good to go. Not sure of cost. I'm sure it varies from State to State.

What is unclear is what will happen if someone tries to claim the truck. Since its a civil action it just a 'preponderance of the evidence'.

If you don't have a title I would get that done first before you restore.. would suck to dump $10k into a truck only to have to give it to its rightful owners.

VEHICLE SERIAL NUMBER (sometimes titles/registrations used this code)
6-PK-F-1070
(from the Specification Manual mentioned in Bill's post)
6 = Oakland, CA plant
PK = 1946 4400
F = month = June
1070 = vehicle serial number

ENGINE SERIAL NUMBER (sometimes titles/registrations used this code)
dca55503 (presumably, the preface letters are DCA, upper case?)
DCA = 1946 4000 series truck engine
55503 = engine serial/sequence number
3542997 (I cannot find this casting code)

ENGINE SERIAL NUMBER
(a replacement engine - a problem if your title/registration uses the original engine serial number)
F 7 14 A
(from the Specification Manual mentioned in Bill's post)
F = Flint, MI plant
7 = July
14 = 14th
A = 235 car model 1100 engine
3764476 is the block casting code for a 1956-1962 235 engine
(see link/web-page shown at the bottom of this post)
You will need to find the block date casting code if you want to know the year of the block.

Here is a page with block/head casting codes (found at a variety of sources)

Reddog 46 In California the Vehicle is titled by the frame number Not the engine. If you have a title that doesn't match the frame you have the wrong title or the wrong frame. Engine numbers don't mean a thing unless your building a numbers matching vehicle all original. You could take your vehicle to a vin. inspector and if the frame is not stolen they can issue a new frame number to register your vehicle with.Or if you have a bill of sale for the frame you should have no problem getting a new pink slip or title for the vehicle.

MrZip,

Frame numbers didn't happen on Chevrolet's until 1955, Reddog46's truck will not have a frame number...

It was very common in most states for pre 1955 titles to use the engine serial number for identification purposes.

Mike B

Well now learn something new everyday did not know that. Thanks for the info. Reddog46 I found a web site that just might help you with your engine numbers it is www.adchevy.com check it out.

Frame#,Cab#,should work the same. Do you have a bill of sale? How long has it been since the truck was last registered. If it's been more than 8 years since it was registered, it should have fallen off DMV's books. If so, just go in with the vehicle and give them the bill of sale and register that way. They'll search the ID on the cab and go from there.

Thanks everyone for the info and advise. I will go to dmv with all this info about old and new engine #s and hopefully they will take all this together and issue a pink with the vehicle id plate as the new vin #.It sounds as if I should just show them the bill of sale I have and go from there it probably would have been easier.Bob

Let us know how it all works out!

Good luck!

Mike B

This is so frustrating on how states did titling back then. Basically, for states that used the engine number for the title, which was the case in Oregon and Washington plus many others, back then. You get a title assigned to a particular engine, the truck means nothing. I'm scratching my head why I keep this old stovebolt (correct engine), because it really tells the next buyer, nothing really. Help me with this? Am I missing something here?
So idiotic that States would chose such a stupid way of identifying, lets take a vehicle that could possibly last 60 years and give it a tangible identity for the life of a splasher engine. That is it in a nutshell.

Titles are not proof of ownership. Bill of sale is for ownership. Titles were invented to allow the State (more correctly, the Police) to have a standardized was to TRACK THE SALE of vehicles, not to provide ownership.

That's why titles are so varied. A state like PA instituted titles very early due to population and theft becoming a problem. NY does not title before 1973, Alabama is even later than that any vehicle older than 35 years does not get a title (2015-35= 1980!!!

If you title a old car now, and there is no VIN equivalent (aka a number/plate on the FRAME, not the motor... usually you take a rubbing to the DMV as proof) you will be issued a VIN plate to install.

My 43 GMC was titled by its frame number CCKW-353-XXXXXX-1 But my 43 Chevy has no such frame stamp, nor do I have the original VIN plates.. but I do have a copy of the old registration... but since it was older than 35 years there STILL is no title... bill of sale.

Your DMV will tell you what is acceptable. If all else fails you should be able to file a claim in court to ask a judge to compel the DMV to issue a title if needed.

If your insurance company balks at a car with no title then you may have to get one.. somehow... but State Farm and most collectors insurance co's should understand this.. if not, look for a smarter insurance company.

Different States do thing differently...Maryland does not require a Bill of Sale, so the title is proof of ownership.

If I buy an antique vehicle I just take the signed title to the DMV, show my insurance info, pay the tax, title and tag fees and walk out with a set of tags...no other paperwork is needed.

Back in the 40's and 50's mechanics knew to transfer the serial numbers when replacing an engine.

Mike B

We were still running vehicles into the early 60's with engine numbers on titles. We routinely bought new short blocks from GMC and stamped the engine to fit the title. If we went to a larger engine, we had to grind off the 3 digit factory number. If we installed a used engine, we had to grind off the entire number and stamp the number to match the titles.
Here is photo of an original title of a GMC which my father bought from his brother in 1951. The title is a legal document as to the ownership of the vehicle. Texas implemented a sales tax in 1961. I bought a 2015 GMC from my cousin today. THe DMV wants to see the bill of sale so they can charge me 6 1/4% sales tax on the selling price. For this reason I have about 30 trailers titled in Oklahoma. OK does not charge sales tax on commercial trailers.

https://plus.google.com/photos/1081...2389313618&oid=108197707187186692269

The title clearly states that the applicant is the "lawful owner of the vehicle described below." I still have the vehicle, It has went through several engines, but the engine is stamped with the number on the title. I am executor of my father's will and I can transfer the title to anyone. But I kind of like having an original title.

Maryland can title a car without any title...

"Vehicles Being Titled Because of Court Orders."
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/getfile.aspx?file=11.15.14.10.htm

http://www.mva.maryland.gov/about-mva/info/27300/27300-37T.htm
Titling - Court Order Affecting Ownership

In order to establish ownership of a vehicle when you don’t have the vehicle’s title or when the title has not been properly signed over (assigned) to you, you may need to obtain a court order, such as a final divorce decree.

And "Bill of Sale" is also proof of ownership:
http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/getfile.aspx?file=11.15.14.02.htm
" (4) "Bill of sale" means a written statement certifying the:

(a) Ownership of something has been transferred; and

(b) Exchange of property for an agreed sum of money or other valuable consideration. "

So MD is not much different than PA. Bith have ways to compel DMV to issue a title and both state that a Bill of Sale is proof of ownership.

Now will the nice lady at the DMV have any idea what the correct way of handling this situation? No. And THAT is the problem.. not the Bill of Sale.

The original question was asked how to title the thing in CA, not PA or MD. The simple way is fixing the thing the way it should have been fixed when the engine was installed many years ago.

The last truck that I bought with a PA title was a Penske truck. I did not need a bill of sale to title it in Texas because the title assignment on the back of the title stated the selling price. And the selling price is what interests Texas. However, I don't pay sales tax because I have an apportioned fleet.

In CA? Sure:

23.020 Motor Vehicle Ownership Surety Bond (CVC §§4157 and 38050; CCR 152)

A Motor Vehicle Ownership Surety Bond (REG 5057) or alternative must be submitted when:

the required supporting evidence of ownership is not available and the value of the vehicle is $5,000 or more

23.010 Bond or Undertaking-(CVC §§4157and 9923)

When regular evidence of ownership is not obtainable, the department may accept a Statement of Facts (REG 256), or a bond or bond alternative (see section 23.060) to support the issuance of a California vehicle Certificate of Title or vessel Certificate of Ownership.

Determination of document (the REG 256, or bond or bond alternative) to submit is based on:
the value of the vehicle or vessel, and
whether the application is being submitted by a dealer, dismantler, or registration service.
The Statement of Facts (REG 256) and the bond are conditioned to protect the department and any future owner against loss resulting from any defect in, or undisclosed claim upon, ownership of the vehicle or vessel.

Sounds like CA is a bit easier... but may cost more.