I’m replacing the ball ends on the tie rod, pitman arm, and drag link with the original style (but with the threaded stud) on my ‘41. I got the old ones out OK. I started replacing the one on the pitman arm. I got the ball end started into the pitman arm using a vise. I was pounding on the ball end with a hammer to get enough threads thru to attach a nut to pull it the rest of the way thru with the nut. The ball stud broke between the threads and the stud. It was about 2/3 of the way in. Apparently that’s not the best way to install it. Does anyone have any suggestions?
They came from Jim Carter. They are very tight. It was a clean break right at the line where the threads start. It's a subjective observation but these appear to be harder than the originals.
I'm with Sparky on this one, no need to beat any of these components in with a sledge. If need be, press it in. Pressing doesn't localize the impact like a hammer blow does, which concentrates the force and can dent/crack or distort the surface of the victim.
Still, a steering component should never snap like that, steering components should be forged and should bend in half before they ever break. Just the ball should have been case hardened, not the stem. Sounds like the ball was subject to the China syndrome, i.e., lack of QC and not given due process in heat treat.
Harold, my '37 is very similar to your '41, so with that in mind, when I tried to use the threaded ball nuts, the one on the front of the draglink would hit the axle as it passed across when turning. I tried loosening the steering arm to raise it using the slop in the holes, which helped, but I wasn't to keen on the idea of it being so close. The other three were OK. I ended up cutting a little of the thread off and peening the rest over like the originals were. Yours may be better then mine was, just be aware of it when you get it together. I have since switched them all over to the modern style tie-rod ends, draglink included. I had a friend custom make a threaded shaft for me. I still had to trim the stud going across the axle on the front draglink.
Wow, those earlier trucks must be quite a bit different than the AD's are. I've got at least an inch clearance under the stud/nut on the forward end of the drag link and axle.
I pulled the broken ball stud out this morning. You can see where it has pushed up metal in the bore. Then I decided to mike everything. The other 3 bores mike 0.530" with a caliper, not the best way to measure a bore but all I have. The other 3 studs mike: 0.534", 0.536", 0.545". The broken stud mikes 0.543" & the bore where I hammered it in is 0.543" I then called Jim Carter & their reply was that this kit is listed for 1/2 tons only & won't fit. Just looked at the Chevy parts catalog and it lists the same part no & casting no for 37-42, 1/2 thru 1 ton.
After exchanging e-mails with them today & trying & failing to convince them with Chevy parts catalog references that 1941 1/2 & 3/4 ton steering parts are the same, I have a return authorization to return the repair kits but not the balls. But since I ordered a 1/2 ton part for a 3/4 ton they won't accept a return or a partial kit return.
I can get the newer type tie rod end which should fix the tie rods. Other vendors I checked have the same part no. for the balls so I don't have any faith they will be any better. I already have the balls out that that connect to the drag link but no one sells the newer ends for the drag link. Does anyone know if the tie rod ends will work for the drag link?
Jim is a good person and really cares about what he sells and his customers. To me, this problem is much bigger than getting a refund for the balls. They shouldn't break and having it break while driving could be fatal. There is something very wrong with the condition of the metal in that product.
You can make the draglink adjustable if you can thread a rod. Find a second steering rod, the long one from tie-rod to tie-rod, cut off the end with right hand threads, and rethread it at right length. This way you only need a standard right hand die. Left handed dies are harder to come by. You gain two advantages with this, one is modern sealed ends, the other is the ability to center the steering gear box. Both make the truck better to drive.
After a closer exam of the threads today I'm not sure I didn't at least contribute to the break.
Joe, McMaster-Carr has a left hand thread 3/4-16 die for less than $50.00. Do you know if the drag link is long enough to thread once I cut the ends off? By the time I pay shipping on even a used tie rod I'll probably be out nearly that much.
Did you get a clear resolution on the tie rod ball end failure? I have been tempted to replace the ball ends on my draglink but am apprehensive of the Chinese reproduction parts. In past inquiries, the parts vendors would make no claims on metal hardness or quality assurance. A failure of this item could be catastrophic.
Don't let that stop you Paul, if something snaps that you bought from a vendor as a steering part and you survive, then when the lawyers get finished, you might just own your own vintage auto parts store. All this talk is fruitless unless we actually see the part that failed and the method in which it failed. dg
Don't let that stop you Paul, if something snaps that you bought from a vendor as a steering part and you survive, then when the lawyers get finished, you might just own your own vintage auto parts store. All this talk is fruitless unless we actually see the part that failed and the method in which it failed.
Charlie had a wheel failure a few years back where the welds at the joint of the center to the rim cracked. From the pictures it's clear to see that they started at a stress riser at the edge of the weld and progressed from there. Clearly the weld crater was not allowed to fill or the bead was undercut or there was to much stress locked up in the weld and it should have had some sort of stress relief after the welding. dg
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
I can't get good closeups with my cheap camera but this is a photo of the broken stud to show where it broke. broken ball stud A photo showing the break. Break A photo showing the damaged thread Thread Damage
So looking at the damaged thread I now believe I likely caused the break. My first mistake was not measuring the studs and holes before I attempted the install. I assumed they were made to fit but from the measurements they probably never would.
I'm returning the repair kits this week and have ordered the newer style tie rod ends for the tie rod. I haven't decided how to do the drag link yet. I've considered 2 other options today. Fit 2 of the balls I have to the pitman arm and steering arm and use the original drag link with new repair parts. Or make a new one from two newer style tie rod ends and a tie rod adjusting sleeve.
Jerry , thanks for that link, I already ordered a catalog so I don't forget them in the future. (I still like paper catalogs better anyway)
I am curious about this too. I replaced the ball studs on my '46 project a couple or so years ago without this problem. Studs were bought from the same vendor. The truck hasn't been finished to the stage of driving yet, so maybe an extra tug or two on the seat belts will be part of the driving checklist?
What the hey guys, you only live once so live it to the full —on the edge, without restraint, and with gusto! Makes me think of this short with a few real rebels who lived their lives to the fullest.
Re-edited this cus I must have missed the pictures that Harold posted earlier. Can't tell much from the pictures but from a distance the metal sure looks crystallized which would indicate it was hardened all the way thru then never tempered. DG
I used the previously mentioned method of a short piece of steel pipe aligned with the holes and a vise to press the studs into position. I likely used assembly lube lightly applied to the stud shaft too. But, that step I'm uncertain of as to recollection. I recall the studs pressed into place without a problem.
My comment above about a predrive checklist regards my usual routine whenever I take my old iron out for drive. All fluids, tires, lights and signals, mirror adjustment etc checked before the drive. I'm a belt and suspenders type when it comes to taking my gals for a ride in the old iron. I've worked to damned hard too damned long and had too many close calls in another life to let my usual boneheadedness factor into a problem I could have avoided by spending a few minutes doing an inspection.
Other than being a purist about original appearance, is there really any reason to go with century-old technology where steering linkage is concerned? The newer style tie rod ends are much stronger and safer, and it's not that hard to adapt the steering system to use them. Ditto on swapping to an adjustable drag link with newer style ends. I don't bet my life on anything that can be improved/updated in the interest of safety or reliability. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Look at the diameter of the stud below the ball end on the original-style components, then compare them to a tapered-shank modern tie rod end. Bigger is usually better, right? Also, how many people actually do the adjustment procedure regularly on their steering linkage? Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Would you run that style of steering linkage on your sprint car? Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Denny, you were right. Using a hammer was my second mistake plus I didn't have it properly supported while hammering. My first mistake was not measuring before doing anything, then I would have known the studs were too large for the holes. Two lessons learned.
From the visual appearance it appears the entire ball and stud are heat treated.
I have modern ends ordered for the tie rods, right now the order is being held pending back order of a 3/4 ton master cylinder (to save on shipping). I decided to do the brakes while I had the fronts already apart.
I think I have the Moog parts identified for tie rod ends and a sleeve for the drag link. I'm not sure if this failed stud attempt has enlarged the hole in the pitman arm enough to cause a problem.
It may be a few weeks before I get it completed: I have another project, gardening time is approaching, and we have a family member with some medical issues.
No more sprint cars Jerry, them's for the youngsters. Sprints, midgets, Pitts biplanes, all of them way to quick for an old man like me anymore. But at least I can say I did it and have something to talk about when I get to the nursing home.
Old Blue tain't hardly a sprint car. And I wouldn't have run a Moog ball joint on any of the racers or flyers either, might be stronger but limited angular deflection and they could pull out of the socket, Heim joints only, they're a little bit weaker but will stand much greater angular movement, just need to change them often. And what's wrong with them ball stud and spring socket ends, they're good enough for Indy: http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/159485677
Not familiar with the pre-AD trucks Harold. Were the ball studs in the steering knuckles tapered like they are in the 3600 AD trucks? They are straight in the 3100 AD's. The ball stud in the pitman arm and the 3rd. arm are the same in the 3600 and 3100 AD, that is straight. DG
It looks like (in the Master Parts Book) the 1946 to 1954 3100 and 3600 tie rod ends (and ball joints?), 6.233,were the same from 1946-1954 (at least).
And, the 1/2 and 3/4 ton tie rod ends were the same as described in the 1954 Shop Manual (as shown above) and in the 1948-53 Shop Manual.
Were the 3/4 ton and 1/2 ton ball studs different?
Is my understanding incorrect, or is this discussion about other ball joints?
Nonetheless, is the stud in the modern-style replacement stronger than the original stud?
Tie rods and ends were the same '46-'54 Tim. The ball studs for the 3/4 ton were tapered/threaded and held in with a nut so they could be replaced: 6.243 377992. At a GM dealership, on a 1/2 ton you had to replace the steering knuckle if the ball stud was bad: http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/159422436/large
Yes, I think it was just that there is some miss spoken names for the parts. Tie rod's connected to the tie rod end, tie rod end connected to the ball stud, ball stud connected to the steering knuckle, left steering knuckle has the third arm, third arm connected to the drag link, drag link connected to the pitman arm, now hear the word of the Lord.
