The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Dings waves metal and epoxy?

Ok I have my cab all down to the metal from the beltlin down behind the doors. I have maybe 2 or 3 dings that I am going to fill.

I HAVE NEVER DONE ANY OF THIS BEFORE!!!!
Hence the name In2deep?
GET IT?

So.
Fill the small dings with filler getting as close to finish grade as possible.

Sand smooth and level.

Epoxy.

I know I am leaving out the details.

Here is the question I know after I epoxy I am going to have a bunch of imperfections (waves smaller divots) jump out at me. Should I be worried about these from step one?

or will a little filler and K36 fix the majority as I move on with the process?

This probably can't be answered without you seeing the truck. Feel free to come over and help out.

"Basics of Basics" Plastic filler
By Brian Martin

What ever tools you use the trick is to not add the last "skim coat' till you KNOW that it is all you need. Don't try to block out that first coat, just use it as a base for the LAST skim coat.

I was taught this procedure after doing bodywork for a number of years and it really works well:

Just apply a nice coat of filler (what ever brand, whatever style, we will put that aside right now). Cut that coat NOT to make it perfect, but to get the basic shape and filling you need as a base for the skim coat. You can cut it with 36 40 or 80 depending on how big the area you are working is. In other words, if you can cut it fast with only 80 then do it. But I would say that this would be limited to an application that is no larger than about 8 inches.

If you happen to have a few high spots, see if you can tap them down.
If you have a few low spots add a bit more filler to ONLY those spots.

Re-cut these last low spots you have just filled with the same grit you have been using (most likely 36).

If you now have a surface that ONE skim coat will fill, then apply it. If you don't work with it a bit more, but NEVER add a little here or there and think you will finish it without a skim coat.

If you have a surface that is very close with only a few VERY MINOR low spots like poor feathering onto the metal, poor transitions from one application of filler to another, or from the metal that is "poking" up here and there you can do the LAST skim coat.

This skim coat is very important, you want it to extend over the COMPLETE area, this is well past the damage you have been working. Maybe as much as 3 inches past the plastic that you have applied to "rough" it out.

This skim coat can be regular filler or a polyester glaze like "Icing" or "Polyester glazing putty", that is your choice, I use both depending on the size of the area being worked. Do not use anything that doesn’t mix with a hardener. NO, “Spot putty” in a tube, only polyester putties or fillers. If it uses a hardener, it cures to a hard film. The “spot putties” stay soft and can become even softer when the solvent from the primer coats it.

You now run a block, long board, or hog even over this skim coat with a little bit coarser paper than you plan on finishing with to cut off the resin that has surfaced in the filler. I usually just use the 36 or 40 or whatever I have been on the "rough" work. BUT take CAUTION not to cut much off, you want to JUST take the very top, don't really sand AT ALL.

Now finish sanding with your longboard or block or hog or whatever using the finer paper like 80 on a large area or 120 on that small 8" sized area. Block it out to perfection with a nice feather edge to the surrounding metal.

I can't stress enough, the trick is to know when just ONE LAST skim coat will do the job. And apply it COMPLETELY over the surface. If you only one little low spot in the middle, DON'T just do it, skim the ENTIRE thing. You HAVE to have one LAST skim coat over the ENTIRE thing every time. If you get in the habit of this you will do it over and over on every dent you repair and find that you can do just about any dent with just
two applications.

As you sand the filler let the board or block you are using run over the surrounding metal. If you only work on the filler you will sand it too low. You need to keep it as high as the surrounding metal, so use the metal as sort of a straight edge that you run the block or board off of.

Don’t worry if you cut through this skim coat here and there. In fact, you WILL most likely cut through. The point of that "LAST SKIM COAT" is that after you add it, you don't add ANY MORE filler. That "LAST SKIM COAT" is just that the LAST filler you add. If you hit a little filler below, or metal, that is normal and fine. The only thing you are looking for at that point is if the panel is FLAT. The filler skim coat is serving no other purpose than to finish you filler work, it is not a "sealer" or anything like that.

You can add fiberglass resin (“A” coat if you have a choice) adding the resin was exactly how I learned from the great Emery Robinson (my personal hero in the auto body world). But remember there was no products like polyester putties back then. When you add resin, that resin comes to the top of the film of filler. It is then something you have to deal with. The whole purpose of the SKIM COAT is to put a layer of filler over the top that is easy to block out with as little effort as possible. You want to be able to concentrate on making the panel FLAT not fighting with gummy resin, sand scratches and the like.

So the polyester putty though expensive is what I use.

How is this for an idea, a co-worker of mine showed me this very obvious tip.

Add pour-able polyester putty to the regular filler! What an idea! LOL A little pour-able squirted into the "bondo" really thins it out nicely.

The "LAST SKIM COAT" should be left to cure a good long time. Where you may jump on filler and sand it as soon as it is hard, the skim coat should be GOOD AND CURED for an hour or more. If you can of course, in the production shop you may not be able to wait that long. The benefits of the procedure will not be diminished.

A little added note, I have found that I don’t use 36 or 40 grit at all anymore. I went to work at a shop that didn’t use the coarser grits so I had to learn not to also. I have found that using just the 80 and then finishing the Skim coat in 120 or 180 works great, even on large panels.

At this shop it was the first time that I wasn’t doing my own primer work. This meant that I couldn’t “cheat” with a lot of primer and blocking the body work “one more time”. I found that I had to get the work PERFECT, then give it to the painter. I did this in an interesting way, I look at the last skim coat as even a more “final” step. I now look it as “primer”. You see I have used polyester primer, which is like spraying “bondo”. They are both polyester resin based and act and sand very much the same. So, I figured why not just “spread out my primer” as the skim coat! It has worked GREAT, the painter jokingly says, “do you think I’ll need to prime this or just paint it?” I tell him, “Just clear it, it’s a shame to hide that work under primer”.

This method has worked great for me, it’s more of a state of mind than a procedure.

And don’t be afraid to buy the best sand paper and use a lot of it, the cost of the paper will be nothing next to the time and muscles saved. Find the paint store in town that services the PROS the Body shops in town, that is were you will get the right stuff and the right info.
__________________

In2,

Can you get at the dings? Someone will get on my case if I am wrong, but if you can get at the dings with a dinging hammer and dolly, give it a try. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I have removed many of the dents from my truck this winter. Most have come out looking pretty darn nice. With some time and a body hammer, you might not need near as much epoxy, filler etc.

Are your dings shown in your webshot pics?

Ok, read the previous post a number of times, take two asprin and call me in the morning. Over sanding the filler is with out a doubt the most common mistake of a beginer. Not giving it the respect it deserves and filling too little is the second most common mistake.

The secret, are you ready for this, I am telling you how the water torture trick works, how the lady disapears. Let me say, I can tell if plastic filler work is straight by looking at it, JUST looking at it before it is primed. That's right, not even touching it, just by how it looks from across the room, I can tell if it is right or not.

The dead give away is how the transition from filler to the surrounding metal LOOKS. It should have a transparent edge, sometimes an inch or more of this literally transparent look. The color of the filler should change from the filler to this transparent area. This color change is the filler going from full thickness of 1/8" or even down to 1/16" which is the same color as if it were an inch thick. But in the inches up to the bare metal it is going to be so thin that it will change colors, up until that magical transparent look right before the metal.

To achieve this you sand with fine paper (we are talking the "Skim coat") very slowly at the begining. Until you get a feel for it, take your time, slowly block it taking time between a few strokes to feel and look at your work. Try to run the block off the filler onto the metal with a fluid motion. When you start seeing that transparent look, really slow down pay attention.

As far as the epoxy, first off, you could apply that first then put the filler over it. If you are not familer with this procedure let me tell you it is a standard of the industry. I know you have heard do not apply filler over paint, or primer. HOWEVER, that is not epoxy primer, it is a recommended procedure by most every manufacture.

The k36 will fill some imperfections and waves. If you follow the guide lines I have writen you will not need more than four coats or so of the primer to take care of it.

Remember, give it the respect it deserves. It is VERY common to have many, many small dings all over the back of that cab. If you guide coat it by spraying a light, VERY LIGHT, mist of primer (a rattle can is fine being you are sanding it off) and using a block,sand it off. The dings will show up very fast because the primer will remain in the low spot after you block.

It is VERY common to end up with a skim coat over a large area taking care of many small dings. Trying to fix a number of small dings in close proximity is much harder than just coating the whole area with a THIN coat and sanding the majority of it "transparent".

Have fun and post with any questions.

Brian

If you can hammer the "dings" out by all means do. HOWEVER, hammering them out TOO FAR is much harder to deal with than a thin coat of filler.

Do you know the difference between a "dent" and a "ding"?

Answer, it depends who is responsable for it.

Great stuff guys.
Yes I do klnow th difference between dent and ding. One looks lookslike someone trew a golfball at it but I can not ge to the other side to hit it. The others are more like marks Tiny divots.

I will take some pics when I can to add to the webshots page.

Thanks again.