The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop solid core plug wires

Is it OK to use solid core plug wires with a pertronix ignition module? I searched the archives and could not find a definitive answer

I am planning on installing a pertronix ignition module and new plug wires .. was considering using solid core wires as original but was told not to do it with the pertronix

anyone using this combo... with either good or bad results?

If you use the solid core wires you will zap your Pertronix module.

You should check, but if you want to use solid core wire you have to use resistor plugs.

Pertronix is very specific in their instructions about solid core wires.

Take a look here.

www.pertronix.com

Solid core wires allow for a pretty heavy current flow in the secondary ignition circuit and usually result in rapid deterioration of the distributor rotor tip and the distributor cap terminals. There's also a pretty strong magnetic field inducded around the plug wires that used to play havoc with AM radios and VHF TV signals. FM and UHF receivers don't have as much of a problem with the induced noise.

The increased secondary voltage available with electronic ignition systems has the potential to do more damage from solid core wires, but only if there's a wide plug gap or other reason to let the voltage peak out like a plug wire falling off, etc. Clean, properly-gapped plugs will keep the firing voltage down below 10K volts, regardless of what the open-circuit capability of an ignition system is. The coil simply cannot develop more voltage than is necessary to jump the plug gaps.
Jerry

So.... it almost sounds like 1). the original points,coil,solid core wires, and non-resistor plugs may provide as good or better performance than a pertronix unit? and 2). original points and coil with resistor wires and plugs would provide poor performance

This will probably open a can of worms...but... what is best "system" (plugs,wires,electronic or points,and coil) for everyday use, driveablity, mileage, etc.

I am running a standard unmodified 261 w/ split exhaust and zenith carb off gmc 270 in a 1950 chevy 1 ton pickup. engine runs fine but have read others online here that say pertronix improved driveavbility and mileage... thought it would be worth the try to upgrade but wanted to get a system that worked well together.... seems like some combinations are a no-no

thanks again for all the help

The advantage to electronic ignition is longevity- - - -points need to be cleaned/adjusted/replaced on an averaqe interval of 10-15K miles due to point burning, oxidation, rubbing block wear, etc. Resistor wires and/or plugs make caps and rotors last longer, and any more current in the plug wires above what's necessary to jump the gap is wasted. The best overall option is resistor wires- - - -with or without resistor plugs. Most of the objection to that approach was resolved close to 50 years ago, although there are still a few diehards who haven't gotten the memo yet. Point-type ignition systems can develop a maximum open circuit voltage of 18-20 KV with good points and proper dwell adjustment. With clean plugs and good wires, that's almost twice what's needed for good performance. Dirty plugs, bad wires, and bad points will cause a low-voltage miss and poor fuel mileage.

Good electronic ignition such as the GM HEI system (not Pertronix) raises the open-circuit firing voltage to 50 KV or so, which can fire plugs with the ground electrodes missing. The extra voltage capability can make plugs last longer between changes because there's seldom a miss to let the plug start getting fouled. Clean, properly-gapped plugs will still fire at 8-10 KV, regardless of what kind of ignition system is used to fire them. The only advantage of an electronic ignition system is longer intervals between plug changes.
Jerry

thanks... so what are the pros and cons of a pertronix unit vs an HEI system.. or for that matter a pertronix unit vs points/condenser?

Pertronix is a proprietary system with its own electronics and a dedicated design coil in some applications, so a failure leaves you stranded until you can diagnose the problem and order replacements from the manufacturer. Some of the members here have experienced repeated failures of the Pertronix system, while others think it's wonderful. General Motors HEI parts are available at any corner parts store, and they're usually virtually bulletproof. The HEI distributor housing needs a little adapting to fit a 216/235/261 engine properly, and sometimes a change to a different drive gear material to work on a stovebolt engine. Personally, I prefer the GM system.
Jerry

Solid state ignition does fire at higher rpm while maintaining better output voltage than single point ignition does.
John

HEI starts to have spark scatter problems at 5500-5800 RPM unless the reluctor is modified and the vacuum advance is locked out. My "stock appearing" HEI units on the claimer engines would go to 7K without any problems.
Jerry

Back when I used to do racing engines, we progressed from single point to dual point to electronic as the RPM's increased. Magneto's were another story.

Electronic ignition was the real winner when you got above 8,000 RPM's.

But seriously, is anyone ever going to see 4,000 on a stove bolt? That isn't even into the range helped by dual points.
And how many people keep the old distributor and parts in a box under the seat for the time the electronics fail?

I had two pertronix, one in my mustang, and one in the truck the mustang lasted about 10 minutes, the truck about 6 months. Only after I "UPGRADED" my ignition, is the only time in 31 years the truck has left me stranded. I have come home with gas just pouring out of the carburetor, with 2 pushrods, come completely out of there designated locations, missing, popping and making all kinds of racket, but I made it into the garage. And all this after about 8 years, I finally got my wife to come with me, along with my 5 year old daughter. We got to discover the bus system in our city, and go back home to get the little Ziploc bag, that I took out of the glovebox the day before for something else and drive back and sit in pouring rain, and wind switching everything back over. No I would not recommend pertronix. I asked this very forum if anyone had similar issues, and of 10 replies, 4 were of the "I will never use pertronix again" variety, these along with my 2 bad experiences makes 6 out of 12 against, not a real good average as far as I can tell. I got a lifetime supply of NOS Points, and can sit there and fester with them for the rest of my life, and still not come close to the misery of that one day. I can't even recall points ever even being any sort of "trouble" in any vehicle, However the HEI would probably do fine.

HEI is what dad and I always ran when racing. I can not think of one time the ignition ever failed us in the 20 years I raced and 40+ dad raced. On our distributor machine, (Allen brand from the 50's), a stock HEI will go to 6000 rpm ( max rpm for the machine ) with out problems when using GM modules. They also fire at 200 to 300 rpm.

The only advantage other then what Jerry already talked about is starting. Electronic ignition engines seem to start and idle better then points. Once up and running in normal everyday engines, I doubt you will see much performance difference.

I have seen HEI with solid core wires and really liked the looked. The fellow used the old cloth braided three color wire. Its something I have been considering for a while, just haven't got the nerve to try it yet. Since I have no radio, it would be fun to mess up everyone's radio around me with static! If I am lucky, it might jam up some cell phone calls around me to.

Joe

Ignitor II and Ignitor III specifically state "DO NOT USE WITH SOLID CORE IGNITION WIRES"

I do not see a warning for the Ignitor (Ignitor I). I think I have original-style ignition wires on my engines with Pertronix 6v Ignitor modules (6v and 12v on 235/261 engines). They have been in use for at least 10 years. The 6v Ignitor (I) unit might have changed over the past 10+ years?

If you want to use a 6v (pos or neg ground) Ignitor (I) with solid core ignition wires, you might want to call Pertronix Customer Service.

I rebuild distributors for a living.
Pertronix + copper core wires = BAD!!!
Solid core wires generate a magnetic field around them, as does any wire that you pulse electricity through. The Pertronix module is looking for small magnets and will sense the magnetic field, resulting in a misfire between the normal cylinder firing. After that "misfire", your coil will be underpowered for the next cylinder when it needs to fire. The general result you'll see on the dyno is a 10% power loss. Simply run points, as they ALWAYS make more power on the dyno if your distributor is in good condition. ALWAYS.

Now I ask you: which is more reliable - a mechanical on/off switch or a series of electronics that's susceptible to failure under conditions with high or low voltage, poor ground, if HT misfires? Save your money and buy points!!!

distributorguy,

Thanks for the clear explanation. I carry a spare tested distributor with adjusted points, condenser, rotor, and cap. If my Pertronix unit goes bad, I'll toss it out and go back to points.

Would the problem you describe get worse at higher RPM? I had that symptom with a 12v Pertonix unit in one of my 261s.

Thanks,

Hmmmm - - - -I suppose that several million vehicles that have been put out there on the road since the mid-1970's all need to be retro-fitted to use points, right? How about all those unreliable electronic controlled fuel injection systems, electronic-timing engines without distributors, etc. that go 100K miles or more without any servicing at all? Yep, there is going to be a huge cottage industry converting all of them to mechanical-switch systems. Of course, the vehicle is going to need a trailer to haul around the relay box that's going to be needed for all those functions.

The original computer system for the Life and Casualty insurance company in Nashville Tennessee took up an entire floor of a high-rise office building, and had less computing power than the cell phones we carry around today. It used hundreds of racks of Eccles-Jordan mechanical relays, and had to have its own air conditioning system to keep the relay racks cool. A similar system to run fuel injection and ignition would make the vehicle approximately the size and weight of a Greyhound bus!
Jerry

I thought this question was about a stovebolt engine.

My comments are directed to stovebolt engines, as was the original poster.

My only issue with the Pertronix ignition has been leaving the ignition on will literally fry the coil and the module. A spare set of points and condenser in the glove box will do you little good. You also need the original distributor insulator (and the special tool for installing it), distributor-to-coil wire, coil-to-ignition resistor wire ,(12 volt only), ignition resister, and coil. You will need a bigger glove box. Having said all this, with the Pertronix, my 235 did perform better than with points on my truck. I am currently running points. We need an HEI which looks exactly like the stock distributor.
Carl

I'm in the process of building one that uses the original distributor housing and off-the-shelf electronic parts from the FLAPS. More to come soon!
Jerry

We shall call you Batman. He had no super powers, just gadgets. (I said "had" because the new Batman is an atrocity upon the original Batman.)
Carl
Carl

I worked for General Electric Company back in the infancy of the computer, 1967-1972.
The systems I specialized in were G.E. 115's made in Italy by Olivetti Inc. Their very Basic system was in a room about a 12 X 12 with Special air conditioning, 4K of Memory, No Keyboard but about 24 Lights and switches on the "Console" , A very basic 300 Punch Cards per minute reader, 3 reel to reel Tape drives,and optionally a removable Disc drive that consisted of 8 spinning discs about 16 inches in diameter PLUS a "High Speed(1000 lines per minute) 168 column Printer that used "Pin Feed paper. To "Boot Up", you entered a Hexadecimal Code that told the Punched card reader . This to read 3 cards with Boot Up Instructions. When this computer was Booted Up, You could now load your "Punched Card" Program. This when Loaded would tell the computer what to do with "Data Punched Cards" you read into the Computer Via the Card Reader. Some of the "Advanced Systems had an "IBM Selectric Typewriter" AKA the Flying Golf Ball type head.Oh By the way, All the documents concerning the Italian made C P U were written in Italian. I needed to carry a Translator dictionary with me to trace a electronic circuit( Transistors) thru the And Gates, Nand gates, NOR gates and whatever else was involved before Integrated Circuits were involved.This New discovery called Transistors and resisters, diodes relays and whatever were on a Printer circuit on a Plug in Board which was installed in the "Main Frame. In front of all these Cards were Pins with Copper wire strung from Pin to Pin in a certain configuration to accomplish what ever the program wanted done.

Oh Hot Rod, You Stirred my memory with Speeds of Cell phones, Computing power of cell phones ETC. Now I know why these hair are Grey Hair!!
Jerry

Looks like the OP's question has been addressed and this thread has taken a most unusual hijack
Man, night shift blows
Back in 82 I got my 1st so called "laptop". It was an IBM but I don't recall the model. It had a huge 7" screen (monochrome) and 2ea 8" floppy drives. I think it had a whopping 64k of memory and no HDD. I'd load my program disc into drive A and my data disc in drive B to work it. Danged thing weighed about 30lbs.... IIRC it was as big as three cinder blocks. I used it to program the new Harris D1201 PABX. The optional ARS/LCR module had a huge cassette tape that stored it's program & data. I'd either use a TTY terminal or plop a Procomm Plus communication floppy into the IBM to program it. Give it a command and watch the tape run and search for the sector, neat stuff....

Those punch card readers were ahead of my time as they were phaseing them out. But we still had to learn 'em in tech school.

Anyways, I haven't seen solid core plug wires in a long time, at least I don't recall so
Back to work
Dave

KIS, why change a good thing?
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138199642/large
Most of us driving a Stovebolt only put on a few thousand miles
a year, so that means a few minutes service ever couple of years.
DG

Hotrod, are you turning your points cam down and putting a reluctor wheel on, with pickup coil and exterior 4 pin module.:) Enquiring minds want to know. Jim

52 Carl, look here.
http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=799563#post799563

Yes, it's a MOPAR reluctor and pickup coil, triggering a remotely-mounted 4 pin HEI module on an aluminum heat sink. I'm using the square GM E-coil that is used with the remote-coil HEI system on the 250 6 cylinder. It's necessary to use the tall distributor cap and rotor to discoutage flashover from the coil tower in the cap through or around the short rotor. 50+ KV will find some interesting ways to get to ground if a plug wire falls off, etc.
Jerry