The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Frame up Resto...what would you do?

Hi guys...i'd like to pick your brains to ask what would you do...here's what I have so far. First time poster so I apologize if I write a bit too much<grin>..

1959 Chev. Apache 3803 Stake Truck (still have original stakes in good shape)...all original...runs great..complete. Alright...the farmer DID do some body work...a rust hole here...he placed a piece of sheet metal over it...rust hole there...you get the idea. The usual headlight rot, rocker panel rot, rear cab rot, some floor rot...body work is something that I do fear...but that is another matter.

Alright...I know I do want to go down to the frame as some of the cab support braces are getting soft, but I am stuck. I hear sandblasting is the "best" way to go...but here's the thing:

1) The transaxle seems good
2) Transmission is good - manual
3) Engine is good...
4) Don't have the $$$ to buy a decent compressor that'd run the hoist & blaster yet...

I guess as a first time restorer I don't have a lot of experience...the thought of ripping apart a transaxle (GM service manual has all these bloody special tools...), transmission, blah blah blah...seems a bit scary. My #1 goal is to prevent any further rust and restore the truck to a useable showpiece so to speak. It is quite rare apparently and I want things to be done right the first time. I guess I am asking for a no-bull opinion here...do I 1) spend 400 hours wire brushing the truck or 2) spend 4 hours sandblasting/having it sandblasted and 396 hours taking everything apart, checking the seals (I have ALL the shop manuals, assembly manuals, etc.)...and hoping I can remove all the sand accurately (if it gets in the transaxle into the gear oil...how do you properly clean the grease out...just wipe it?)

Sorry for all the questions guys...it took me 45 minutes to manhandle the oil drain plug out (to give you an idea)...and removing the lug nuts from the wheels is well...very time consuming without a pneumatic wrench and just massive muscle force.

Thanks guys,

Justin

I normally don't answer these questions as sooner or later someone will come up and say that I'm wrong or have a smart assed critcism of my statements. When this happens I usually just delete my comments ... so read this and copy it or [censored] can it at your pleasure.

Sandblasting ... strip the frame down to the point where you even have the springs off (take pictures as you go and ask questions) ... get it sandblasted and paint it with Zero Rust. (take pictures and ask questions) Gather up all the stuff that you've taken off and get them sandblasted ... paint it all with Zero Rust (take pictures) ... now start repairing stuff ... if you can't do the axles ... take them to someone who can. (take pictures and ask questions) If you cant repair the tranny take it to someone who can (take pictures and ask questions) If you can't do the body work, find a body worker to do it on the side. When you have everything repaired and painted with Zero Rust ... get it all primed and painted (take pictures and ask questions)... now the fun part ... start to reassemble ... it's the best part because you dont get dirty doing it.

Oh if I didn't mention it, take pictures, (take lots of pictures)

Now, next question ... keeping in mind that there are no "stupid questions" just stupid answers.

If you decide to do a frame off restoration do as he says. He just looks... never mind. Only to border guards...

BUT, in your case I would do a running restoration. Never do more to the truck that you can't get it back together and use it, drive it, move it.

If you take it all apart there is a very good chance you will not put it back together. Not in 400 hours, more like 4,000 hours.

4000 hours is reasonable ... I have one great tip, the best I ever had given to me ... do something every night/day ... something ... be it take off one bolt or part or install something ... every day/night ... without fail ... this was advice given to me by my wife and it got the job done ... it is real easy to say maybe not tonight ... don't do it ... for every finished project on the road I can find 5 that are sitting in the shop gathering dust ... lots of dust.

Thank you Rust Smuggler & Tony. 400 was just a number I picked out of my head to clean and prime the frame. I realize that it being my first restoration...it's going to take a LONG time...i'd just like to do it right the first time. I'd like to ensure the drive shaft doesn't drop or my feet don't go through the floor...that kind of thing...then try and restore it to original in the form of paint, finish...but we can't do that with rust can we<grin>? As I have spent 1000+ hours on some websites and work projects...I guess I am a sucker for massive projects. I've printed for reference what advice you guys have given me...like you advised<grin>. The clean part is something I think i'd love...as the truck lived on a farm for it's first 44 years...and dust and grime and rust...

Some more questions:
1) If you do a complete frame up...do you literally take EVERYTHING apart? I always thought it was ripping everything down to the frame, rebuilding what needed work (i.e. leaky master cylinder, brake cylinders, blah blah blah). I know for seals, gaskets, etc. etc. then you KNOW it won't leak and you are less likely to have serious mechanical issues in the future if you rebuild everything...

2) I keep reading that sand blasting *IS* essential and I now totally agree...for the experienced pros out there...is a blast cabinet essential if you want to properly restore for all the small parts such as the springs on the handle of the e-brake, etc.?

3) Bolts...keep them...or break them off and use what tool to extract them? Am currently struggling (2 days, 1/2 a can of liquid wrench following the instructions down to the last letter, some WD-40, a "+" tire iron and a 3' iron bar and have 6 of the 8 lugs loose on the pass rear tandum wheel...is this what I have to look forward to<grin>? I know I am punishing myself with not having an impact wrench...zip zip zip I think...but any tips for the time being? Brake drums are going to be interesting<grin>. The tires have not been over in at least 20 years...

4) Springs...any pointers (leaf springs)? (Have the how to restore chev truck book on order...i'm impatient sorry) Do you have to worry about the buggars bending out of shape after you remove the U bolts? I've heard about putting a strip of Teflon between each spring...merit on a 1 ton? Paint each leaf independently...assemble it together...pointers on how you know if the spring joints need replaced? I've discovered a cracked outside support for the leaf spring (picture to be added once I have them developed) that is bolted to the frame...so wondering if that is well...a big attention sign for spring fatigue or something...

5) How would one redo the frame if you attempt a running restore? I'm paranoid I guess with the under-cab rust and corrosion on the frame. I'm fine with a movable autobody project...but it's safety...

I've heavily researched the truck and took detailed pictures of it BEFORE I started work on anything. Plan on a website in regards to the project...with project in-process pictures. I'm sure a couple photos will come to the forum for help...

Thanks

ook ya want to use it or work on it for a gazillion years

this is what we did in 11 days bought a 1957 canadian gmc flatbed dump truck in 1988 for 900 bucks the cab vents waz full of hay and the body had lots of rust i just loaded the pics on starphoto and haven't had time to add the text yet
[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/bullfoot/4-1-2-1069946118?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=1[/img]
[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/bullfoot/4-1-3-1071214239?m=1&pg=3&ro=0&co=2[/img]

MANOMANO GMPONY AND BULLFOOT AND KIDS BUILDS DE ROCKET

1. I can only answer for myself ... YES. I redid everything ... from the starter motor to the rear brakes.

2. Again YES, you will save money (a lot of money) in the long run doing small parts yourself.

3. Save specialty nuts & bolts ie: hood, door, lug nuts, etc. When it came to nuts & blots in particular the deck crank 'em in and brake 'em off. I replace every nut and every bolt that I removed with stainless ... don't ever want to go throught that again. But stainless is up to you ... if yer budget is tight go with regular grade three bolts.

4. A.) No not that I noticed. B.) Telfon hmmm not sure on that ... a piece of rubber tubing or even burlap soaked in oil ... I have nothing and they don't seem to squeek. C.) My rule of thumb is if it's broken or cracked [censored] can it and get another. D.) Can't answer that one because for me there's only one way ... flat out ... take 'er off the road and do it ... maybe someone else can answer you on that one.

Time wise ... the more I do on these the better I feel it's an elixer for me so I would say that I could never be honest about how much time I spent on my trucks ...

I remember one time that I was almost finished and looked closely at the bed ... one carriage bolt was sitting a little proud of the others ... so I decided to fix it ... had to removed the fuel tank ... drain it first ... disconnect everything ... tighten the nut which untimately stripped, go to town get another nut and bolt install it ... replace the tank, reconnect, and refill the gastank ... took me about 8 hours ... to tighten one nut ... seems silly now but at the time it was vitally important ...

Looks very nice Bullfoot...thank you. That's simply amazing what you managed to do in that time period!

I just have something for trucks...i've always wanted a WWII/Korean war jeep...and went to University to get myself a AM General Hummer...so Ralphy I don't have either of these yet. While I have always liked the older pickups, I never thought i'd be working or owning a stake truck. Maybe I am ignorant here...but it's not about the money. Sure it is $$$...one place here in Ont, Canada wants $695 for a used 59 door...ouch...to me it is a piece of history...and proof of the rugged construction of the old chevy and her "speed demon" speed<grin>. I'm only 25...probably sounds strange...oh well...

I believe Rust Smuggler's advice of 1 piece/project a day is an excellent idea...words I will remember. I am just unsure Rust Smuggler when you say twist off the screws and break them...do you drill out the old screws then retap the threads?

I'm in pretty much the same boat. I decided right away that would not even try to get it running otherwise I would be tempted to start driving it and never restore it the way I really want it in the end. After two years of occasional putzing around with it, I have it down to the frame and have a good number of parts blasted, chemically stripped and ready for paint. I started out by renting time on a large industrial sand blast cabinet to do the parts that would fit then got talking with a guy at work who introduced me to a "Metal Cleaner" company that does a lot of parts for restorations. It is the greatest thing I have ever seen. You bring them a rusty old door and they give it back the next day without the rust and old paint. All said and done it is almost cheaper than renting time on the blast cabinet and there is no physical damage that is caused by the blast media. Check your phone books or ask, ask, ask and keep asking people that work or live in your area. I drive over an hour to bring my parts to this place. I will have my frame sand blasted and zero rust it, but I have to wait until spring as I don't have a heated garage that would allow me to paint.

Just in tearing it down I have found soooo much that I never would have found had I done a frame on restore. It's ok to do them but mine sat so long (30 years) it would have been tough to get it to being a daily driver or even where I wold trust driving it to a show more than a few miles away and I would have spent WAY more time in the long run getting it to where I really want it.

I go in spurts and have recently made huge progress. What keeps me going is picking small/mini projects that I work on to completion. It's great to see before and after pictures.

Speaking of pictures. You mentioned you need to wait to get your pictures developed. Toss the film camera and spend a couple hundred bucks on a digital camera with at least 2.0 megapixels. it will pay for itself over and over just in the savings on film and development.

Good luck...I think the link to my home page/pictures above finally works. My on-line pictures represent only about 10% of the pictures I have taken. photo page

we were on vacation when we bought the rocket it was a running truck out of elkton or and only used for the hayin seasons we needed a truck to move all our projects to arizona and only had about 15 days before we had to be back

it was a good runner 327 5sp trans good 2 speed good all but 2 tires were good we put 2 new tires on the steer axle

by the time reached our godfathers shop in cottage grove the dryrotted wood bed and crossmembers scattered it self all over the highway oops all the wires were dryrotted sparks were flyin

exhaust was full of holes also fell off when we hit a big hole in the pavement it waz about the same time the bed fell off lol

we ended up rewireing it all the wire and fuses and relays we stripped out of a buick electra wagon even used the buick cruz control

replaced the exhaust with allmost new 6.2 liter diesel duels pipes off a friends he had replaced with a banks turbo system full serviced it tuned it install a screw on oil filter

wire wheeled the frame rear end yada yada wish we could have had z-rust leaned all the hay and oat stuff out of all the vents yep a rusty hulk the cab waz and still is today but we needed a truck

our god father traded a 12' bed to me for installing a cruz control on his old caddy
we cut off and straightened and patched and rewelded the headboard back on and streched the bed to 16 feet and installed all the bed wood with 16'x2"x5" hemlock that we salvaged out of a canyon here a truck had turned over

meanwhile gmpony got bored and started to rattlecan paint everything inside and out we hung a pair of 70 gal kw fuel tanks it was haul them or wear then tat gave us about 160 gals fuel now you know why we all it de rocket

we put 1400 bucks in it tax licence insurance 2 new tires and parts lights bells and whisles oxy acet 2 cords fire wood in de ol shop stove we camped out in our god fathers shop for 11 days start to road ready and rewired and fixed stuff at night and grind bang and weld in the day time the kids had a great time between helpin on the truck and playin in de creek
all loaded up for the first trip down de interstate 5 and on to az after i checks things out not a bit of trouble and still cheaper then a u haul and we got to keep the truck
[img]http://photo.starblvd.net/bullfoot/4-5-1-1070627706?m=1&pg=3&ro=4&co=0[/img]

J.R., neg - neg Waldo. Not the screws, what I meant was, if you have a nut and bolt situation ... tighten them up til the bolt breaks and then [censored] can the pieces. You'll never use the old rusted stuff again anyway.

As far a drilling and taping, rest assured you're going to break a couple and have to retap them ... not a biggy after about the first 10 or 15 of them.

It took me a while to figure out that if I spend 15 or 20 minutes, a rattle can of skunk [censored] separating a rusty old nut and bolt or tighten them til one breaks the bottom line is it's off and I'm not using it again anyway.

Do yourself another big favour go and get a nut splitter ... a good one ... I think I paid 50 or 60 bucks for mine and it's worth the money everytime I use it.

I've a '64 Chev swb stepside and a '66 parts truck. I took my truck down to the frame. If it wasn't riveted or welded, it came off the frame.

I like the idea of doing something everyday, but that's not too easy in my case. I took the truck apart about 2 years ago, bc that was cheap; no money involved in tearing them down. I stowed the small stuff in my 12 x 12 shop that doubles as a model aircraft shop, wood shop, lawn equipment shop, and dog pen (I guess that should be 'quadruples'), and the larger body parts I put in the bed which is on blocks and covered it all with a tarp. I don't have a shop (yet) that I can put the two trucks in. I barely have a compressor - not big enough to do anything but blow the dust off - and I don't have a lot of tools. I am to the point now where I have to start spending $$$ to get the tools and new parts, and that's where I am now. I plan on doing it ONCE. If it takes me years, so be it. I don't want to have to fix something on the truck 2 years from now because I didn't take my time in the first place to do it right; right may mean taking something else off that I didn't plan on in the first place. So, I opted to take it all off.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, how much money do you want to spend versus what kind of time frame you have? How maintenance free do you want it (I know, nothing's ever maint free, but you can get pretty darn close)? I know I'm going to spend major money, and it's going to take me major time, but the truck will be exactly the way I want it when I'm done - as 'oh I have to fix that bc I didn't do it when I spent all that time restoring my old truck' free as possible. Forgive me, but when I'm done restoring it, I want to enjoy it, not cuss it bc I didn't do it the way it was supposed to be done in the first place.

Besides, it's not like you're taking on a vehicle that's got a ton of chrome-plated-no-use-whatsoever-look-good-snake-nest-of-wire-and-sensless-sensors-crap. It's a straightforward-gas-pedal-brake-clutch-lights kinda vehicle.

Just wanted to share this..I'm new at this and went and spent over $3,000 on tools..sandblaster I bought was a clark 10 gal that I hooked to my compressor,,I was having trouble with it so I went to Wal-Mart and bought a $13 sand blaster kit..it is syphoon feed..very easy..works well. I even used on body, (Fine Grain)..no warping, saved alot of time
\

I had a lot of hours just doing the frame, power washed (steam), wire cup on 4" grinder, putty knife, wire brush, safety solvent, blue million rags, but you wouldn't believe the releif from frustrations it give me. Now working on bottom of cab (its laying on it back) spent 16 hrs. on it not done but fun. So its what you want to put in to it. popcorn The Truth is Out There ( Yep put new SS bolts in frame it is BEAUTIFUL)

P.S. I like the concept do something no matter how little it is everyday

Uuuhhhmmm. You might want to look at my cab and fenders. All of them were blasted. Sand in a majority of spots - remove surface rust other media in remaining areas for paint removal.

I have zero warping from this process. It does matter who does it. Some are better than others.

But - in general you are correct - forget the sand on the body, use other media designed for what you are trying to remove.

----

JR -

As for stripping the frame. The advice given is great, but I would add one - the Flap Disk. Is absolutely amazing! Strips faster than a cup brush and lasts a long time. We stripped our entire frame using cup brushes and flap disks. It took a very very long time to get into all those little nooks. Not to mention the untouchables in some of the x-members. We then scrapped the frame and started from scratch (for several reasons). Litterally - scratching my butt saying what in the @#$% do I do now!

- Ryan

Use lots of PB Blaster on the frozen nuts and bolts. Get it at walie mart or parts house. Just keep spraying it everyday. the stuff on the label is true. This may be a silly question but here goes. If engine, trans and diff are all good why take them apart? Just keep everything pluged so sand and dust stay out. Drive train parts are easy to remove if they fail and you have less to put back in your jigsaw puzzle.

from my mistakes if you have asmall garage do all the dirty work first. i sandblasted my frame and
drivetrain then worked on the body know my frame looks like crap.dont even try to figure a budjet.
if you do multiply it by 3. good luck

Jr Brown, Yes take lots of pictures, I sandblasted a frame 4 years ago and all the control arms, springs(each seperate leaf) and painted them in 2 days and 1200lbs of sand. I'am still putting it back together, but it runs and drives, just have the interiot to finish off and the trim to polish and install (winter project). there is places in the Toronto area that will come to you to sand blast or Soda blast body panels as well.

Jr Brown, Yes take lots of pictures, I sandblasted a frame 4 years ago and all the control arms, springs(each seperate leaf) and painted them in 2 days and 1200lbs of sand. I'am still putting it back together, but it runs and drives, just have the interiot to finish off and the trim to polish and install (winter project). there is places in the Toronto area that will come to you to sand blast or Soda blast body panels as well.[/QUOTE]

Holy *#&@...that's a LOT of sand...I was thinking perhaps 150-200lbs...sorry I am a bad canadian and don't know what that is in kg...wow. Alright...I don't have a sand blaster right now...but was priced $400 CDN for a guy to come and do just the frame...thinking that a excellent compressor will cost me around 1400...be smarter to wait right?

Well I was only using the sand once, and with a 3/8 dia nozzel on a pressure feed tank it stripes an 1 1/2 path at one time but my backyard looked like a beach. the cost of sand i was paying about $8 to $12cdn for 100 lbs. For an air compressor i have a diesel that is ment to run a couple of jack hammers and a sand blast tank holds 150lbs of sand. Might check with Princess Auto for tools as well.

Wow, this one's getting out of hand...Here's two cents from a fellow rookie. If you like the truck and will keep it, do what you want to do. If you're looking to sell and get your cash back, stop now and forever leave old vehilcles.

Two other notes, I found a guy in North Dakota (I think C & C Truck Parts) who is a super nice guy who will do what he can to get you good stuff to get the job done. Second, I got a GREAT deal on a compressor at Tractor Supply Store. For under $700, it's big, it's quiet, and when I grab the D/A or the sandblaster, it says "BRING IT ON!!"

Please note: neither should be considered advertising, just expressing satisfaction with good vendors.