The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop William's, a Fenton knockoff and a poor product.

Can’t recall the exact conversation or when I saw it,
but there was some reports having to do with the need
to rework the Fenton headers being pushed at us today.
I’ve been helping a friend get his truck back on its
feet and yesterday we tackled the manifolds on the ’56
235 that’s in it.
He purchased a complete exhaust kit from National
Chevy Assn., which supplies William’s headers with the
kit. The bottom line read, “Complete with all
necessary hardware and installation instructions.”
Now sitting on the bench and hanging on the side of
the engine, these, like the Fenton headers look real
sharp, however........looks cam be deceiving.

Number one, there were no instructions. Number two the
kit did had hangers and muffler clamps but to install
the Williams headers without special manifold clamps turns
into a real pain in the ars.
We made a call to them and the guys were nice enough
to talk to but really didn’t have much to offer as far
as installation advice. The gentleman that we talked
to did say that the headers were made in Ohio and that
they used the Fenton headers as a master for the
casting. So according to that information the trouble
we have with the William’s headers should also apply
to the Fenton headers.
The trouble: First off, the flanges are cast nearly 1/8”
thicker than the stock intake, which sounds easy
enough to fix by grinding a little step in the
manifold clamps.
The way the flange is cast, the front center clamp
just barely catch the header by a about 1/32” and
only on the top of the clamp. The rear center needs to
be ground away right up to the hole and the flange
casting actually slightly over-laps the threaded hole
in the head. I won’t go into the rest of the
individual clamps, but just to say that large amounts
of the clamps have to be ground away to get them to
fit and the clamping surfaces are then off balanced
since the clamp strength comes for the compound curve
that is used in its manufacture. The strain bumps in
the center gasket have to be flattened in order for
the Williams headers to fit flush, this makes the
gasket longer and it overlaps the exhaust port by
about a 1/16” on both ports, this also destroys the
ability of the gasket to act independently on the two
exhaust ports and single intake port.

I seem to recall posting something on this subject in
the past about the fit of the ‘new’ Fenton castings.
Back in the day I’d installed the original Fenton
headers and they were a well-made direct bolt on part
that required no rework to the castings or clamps.
If they have made ‘upgrades’ to the ‘new’ version of
cast headers then they should also supply a proper
center gasket replacement and newly designed manifold
clamps with the header. I hate to have to say this but
I’ve had to do less rework from parts that came from
across the Pacific than I did to these parts that came
for Ohio, USA.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I do not know if the difference in flange thicknesses is a new thing, because I did not use Fenton headers on 216/235/261 engines "back in the day".

The Fentons that I bought in 1997 had a flange thickness that did not match the dual-carb Offenhauser intake. I had to grind the flanges on the Fentons to match the Offenhauser flanges.

The Fenton headers' flanges do match the thickness of the Fenton dual-carb intake manifold (as it should). And, the Fenton headers' flanges almost match the thickness of the original 235/261 intake manifolds (I am using original clamps but they are at a slight angle).

I know I have had to do extensive rework of many items I have bought for the truck so far. I am just going to consider it part of the fun, rather than going crazy. I had the same problem with the fenton set, I was aghast when I received the intake in a box that had "made in china" on the side. I don't recall where the headers were made, I believe they had been repackaged. I did see a post on this forum, or maybe chevy talk, from some fella that did the importing (at least claimed he did) of these parts. And he was saying the quality was getting so poor that the people that held the license was having the patterns redone. And after the existing stock was depleted. The new revised editions will be coming out. He may have been blowing smoke as far as I know, but that was his story. (or something along those lines)

Wanderer1955 1st (Cecil) ordered a William's complete set up. He's supposed to get back with me when the time comes with his opinion on these. Maybe he will post something on here. I'm starting to lean against getting a set of these.

Brian

I'll check my Repro Fentons from Patricks that I recieved a while back. They're not mounted yet. Check them against the Military 302 intake and the "H" head intake flanges that I have. The Patricks Fentons that I got from Patricks have been machined on already, so maybe they prepped the raw Casting to match the old intakes or maybe it was just to fit a GMC engine. Will post pics tonight. Jim

The Fenton's will only bolt onto the Stovebolt cylinder heads out of the box, and they require extensive port welding and grinding to adapt to fit a GMC port arrangement. Also keep in mind that Patrick's has been the only one to ever have permission and a trademark agreement to us the Fenton name, and everyone else is basically stealing that right away from him in selling knockoff parts under the Fenton name.

I have original Fenton headers that came off a 55 235 and an Offy dual 1bbl intake. The flanges matched up fine. So the originals work fine with a "modern" manifold. Maybe the repro guys aren't paying close attention to the specs or have sloppy production practices.

I will say i do not know how the originals were made back in the day so i can only tell you about my experiences about todays knock offs. I expect That when I order reproduction products I'm going to have to do some refitting because they just don't fit right. My experience with the Fenton headers and intake I had to do some modifications to them also. I thought they would match right up to my 235 head However At the ends of the heads I had to build a bracket Because the Fenton headers Mounting tab was a lot higher than the one on the intake. Now in all fairness Don't know who is really at fault. I bought the intake from Patrick's And the headers of ebay. Wasn't a big deal I figured I'd do some work on it anyway. Now the thing that really shock to me The intake from Patrick's that I bought I did not notice it until after I had it power coated When I set it down on the table and I noticed that the ports were not at the same height I looked online and looked at other intakes already installed in the motors and they all seem to the lean to the front of the motor maybe it's designed that way but I would think that it would level. As far as mounting the two Fentons to the head i just made it work. And if it's wrong I will go back and find out what's wrong and make it work.

But you guys are right it doesn't matter what body panel or what engine part and knock off it should be right.

Secondly one of the stoveboulders who lives in Germany bought his Fenton intake from Patrick's and when he got it home. He noticed that there was a hole in one of the intake ports he sent me the picture of it and it looked like you could have dropped a dime into it luckily he was able to to weld it and repair it. http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b554/stovebolt56/20140204_2042261_zpsnxd7it7d.jpg

I guess it is what it is and you gotta do what you gotta do. I still love working on this old iron. I am still a happy bolter doing one piece at a time.

FWIW I've got a set of Williams I ordered last year, bolted to an 838 head on a 55 block on a stand in my shop for a future project. Using an Offenhauser 216 dual carb intake it bolted right up using a set of stock clamps. I did do a little hand filing on the center exaust extensions back sides to remove a little angularity in the clamp, but it was just a few minutes work. The faces were lovely, machined flat and parallel. I liked 'em.

I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that the Offy was their intended set up, but cannot confirm.

My Fentons were supposed to be machined for a GMC too. All I could see is they machined a flat spot and stamped GMC into it. It took extensive work to get them to fit.

A better deal for GMCs, though more expensive, is the Nicson headers Buffalo sells.

There is simply no way that you could use the stock manifold
clamps without, as Charlie puts it, "extensive work". If I had
my Bridgeport set up I'd just machine a set of custom clamps
because by the time you grind away the stock ones there is
hardly any decent clamping surface left on them.
We're using the stock intake manifold on this truck, still, even if the headers
were matched an after market intake that wouldn't change the
way the headers are cast, which is right in the way where one
needs to clamp them up.
Chuck, I'd really like to see some pictures of your William's
headers that you installed on your truck, since you say they
mounted right up without a hitch.

I have to disagree with those that expect to modify everything
that we buy for these trucks. For the kind of money that we're
shelling out something like this should be a direct bolt on
item, without any modification or at least with replacement
clamps that would make the install solid.

DG

DITTO'S

Heres what I did. I saw it in a book, bought the angle iron and started modifying.
Rear
Front
Finished product

Thanks, Tiny_Jaime

Your welcome Tim. I actually read it from The Classic Chevy Truck Handbook on page 38 written by Jim Richardson. The illustration in the book looks better than mine but I am still pleased how the came out. I tried every which way to grind and make the others work but they did not look or fit right. I am glad I read about that

Looks great, Tiny_Jaime.

Yep, that looks like the only way to get them to fit, make your
own. Obviously the after market intake is different than the
stock single manifold. The stock center clamps won't work
without heavy grinding and in some cases they aren't long enough
to span the two flanges, only grabbing them by a 1/16" or so.

DG

To continue this conversation, I would like to see some pictures
of the passenger side pipe where it crosses under the transmission.
The one that National Chevy Assn. sends with their kit blocks
off the drain plug on the SM420 and actually hits on it if you
try to raise the muffler up level with the driver side.
Also the passenger muffler falls behind the driver side by
nearly half its length.
Tail pipe on the passenger side had to be cut off and re-swaged
to fit inside the glass pack muffler. The tail pipe on the
driver side had to be extended roughly eight or ten inches
to reach the muffler.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Looks like I'll be keeping my stock single exhaust. After working on commercial lawn equipment for ten hours a day, I would not want to come home and have to make a bunch of modifications to make a manifold fit. To me, that would most definitely not be "part of the fun". I have plenty of other frustrations in life to deal with

Good choice Ed, I'm not working on this truck, I just started
this thread for a friend who is trying to install it. Believe
me, what was pictured as a complete dual exhaust kit in the
catalog is really a bunch of crap. Manifold doesn't fit right,
pipes are bent wrong, pipe ends are improperly made, hangers
need additional straps to reach the frame.

50 years ago when I bought my dual exhaust kit from the Sears
catalog for my '60 Biscayne it was the original Fenton kit.
everything fit well, no modification and it was a breeze to
install. It's really a shame what they are selling today.

Denny Graham

I have nothing to add but have a somewhat related question.
I currently have a nearly brand new single exhaust system on a 49 3100 216 from manifold to tailpipe.
On a conversion to duals, will the stock single exhaust lineup and bolt to one of the dual exhaust manifolds?

Tiny, nice mod. Another reason why I wanted to bookmark this thread for future use

Dave

Dave, the dual Fentons are supposed to use one stock pipe. Whether or not they actually do in practice, I don't know.