The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop New Camshaft issue :(

I bought an engine from a friend and rebuilt it. I replaced the camshaft with a new one from Chevys of the forties. I finished the rebuild of the engine along with new valves and springs. Well after about 30 miles or so I notices a miss and popping out the carb. I pulled the valve cover to readjust the rockers and noticed the #6 exhaust valve was barely moving. I dropped the pan and found the lobe wiped out. What did I do wrong or has there been some issues with these new cams?
Thanks for the help guys
Tom

You failed to "run in" the cam at RPM well above idle for 20-30 minutes immediately after startup. While a cam is establishing a running fit with the lifters, it's vitally important to keep it flooded with lots of oil thrown off the crankshaft by running at 1500-2000 RPM, and bringing the speed up as soon as you see oil pressure on the gauge. Most cam manufacturers also provide a tube of "assembly lube" to be applied liberally to the cam and lifters on the initial assembly. This protecrs the parts until a good volume of oil can be supplied to the lobes by the spinning crankshaft.

Some "break-in" oils contain a high concentration of an additive known as "ZDDP" that's a zinc compound intended to assist a flat-tappet cam break in properly. Most modern oils have little or no such additives because modern roller-tappet cams aren't as sensitive to catastrophic failure during the run-in period.

As an aside- - - -all that cam lobe material had to go somewhere- - - -do a complete teardown on the engine and pressure-wash all the crud out of the oil system or the next failure will be most of the rod and main bearings, etc.
Jerry

I did use cam assembly lube but I didn't run it at 2,000 rpms for the 30 minutes. It was a total rebuild and was afraid to run it that fast on the initial run. Also thought it was strange that I only wiped out one lobe.
I do plan on removing the engine and tearing it down and flushing it out.
Thanks for the reply I appreciate it. Live and Learn I guess, Just sucks to do it all again
Tom

Did you use new lifters too Tom?

Dennis

no I didn't. I didn't think they looked bad, but after some reading I guess that too was a bad move on my part. I should have googled break-in procedure before I fired it up! Might have helped too if I would have left the old springs on the valves also.

Tom which engine was it? Also, plz let us know how you make out on the rebuild. Plenty of us could find ourselves in the same situation.

It is a 1946 216. I should have done more research. I've rebuilt some Ford model A engines before but never used new cams.

I thought now would be the time to put one in while I had this one apart because the original had some wear on it

I have built dozens of race engines over the past 40-something years, and every one got a 20 minute run-in immediately after startup. If the bearing clearance and oil pressure is good, the speed doesn't cause any problems at all. Just have everything like ignition timing, coolant, etc. as close as possible to correct before you fire the engine. Tinkering with carb adjustments and timing to keep the engine running and letting it idle on initial startup will wipe out a cam in a hurry. Sorry you had to learn this lesson the hard way!
Jerry

Tom Samson, " I replaced the camshaft with a new one from Chevys of the forties " .

DennisM, " Did you use new lifters too Tom " ?

Tom Samson, " no I didn't. I didn't think they looked bad "


Initial startup must be done exactly as Hot Rod Lincoln states
with zddp in the oil & high rev's for 20 - 30 minutes.

Your original (1946 216 6 cyl) camshaft was
a FORGED STEEL camshaft and used
CHILLED IRON BASE tappets / lifters.

There is NOT a forged steel camshaft being made
in the USA today.

So, the cam you bought from Chev of the 40's had
to be a CAST CAMSHAFT.

CAST camshafts USE HARDENABLE iron tappets / lifters.

So, what tappets / lifters did you use with the NEW CAST CAM ?

PIC@photobucket

Read the sides of the OLD ISKY LIFTER BOXES.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/ISKY/OldCamCompanyLifterboxes_zps6fc62dc4.jpg

Use the wrong type of tappet/lifter = cam lobe wipeout & or lifter wipeout.
The cast cam being softer usually goes first.

It's known as: Metalurgical Incompatibility.

I advise using NEW LIFTERS with a NEW CAM
or
at least have the matching old lifters re-faced by a company
that knows how to do them properly.

I'd never use used tappets on a new cam.
It's just not good engine building.

The old time Chevy solid lifters were NOT
flat on the lifter face.
They have approx. a ( 0.002" ) hemispherical crown
designed onto the lifter face.
That crown radius helps make the lifter spin & slide across the cam lobe.

Most of the lifter re-finishing companies don't
have the brains or equipment to duplicate
the spherical radius.
They just re-grind them flat.

Flat re-faced lifters that are supposed to
have a crown will not spin the lifter.
You can expect a future problem
in this area.

They all say, they know about the radius
but
This is a discussion for another day.

Delta Cams in Tacoma, WA.
are the people, I would
use for cam regrinding
and proper lifter re-facing.

link to Delta Cams
short videos you can watch
shows cam regrinding process & more
http://deltacam.com/camshaftgrinding.php?p=2

If you still have your original forged steel camshaft.
It can be reground to stock specs ( check the casting # ) to be sure of what you have.

Cam Work:on your original forged cam
Polished Journal Bearing Surfaces - Re-Ground Lobes - Cleaned & Straightened.
You could even have it parkerized.
That can help in break - in .

Then you could look for some GM NOS tappets
like these that sold on ebay yesterday.

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/ISKY/GM839263ChilledIronTappets_zps9bed3034.jpg

You need to MATCH the cam to the lifters.

This is an absolute MUST.
There is NO debate.

CHILLED IRON BASE lifters with a forged cam.
or
HARDENABLE IRON lifters with a cast cam.

You need to be sure the distributor drive

GEAR matches the camshaft.



The chilled iron tappets are hard to find.

But they are out there.

I'd be willing to help you hunt down some new nos
lifters .

Just PM me.

George

Tom, make sure you tear that engine all the way down again and have everything cleaned, even the galley plugs need to come back out and flush everything so there is no cam/lifter grindings in there anymore. check all the bearings for "junk" on them, if you don't you could do it again when you put it all back together. I would never run used lifters on a new cam, unless you had them reground like '54 3600 states,, and then do what Hotrod Lincoln said to do with break in. Sorry for your problem, but it all can be fixed once again for a few dollars more and then you will be back to driving your truck .

Don't feel too bad either. We all started out some where early on and did things that didn't quite work out as planned and had to re do them. Part of the learning process.

Things will work better next time with the right parts and knowledge you have now.

If possible, post a picture or two of the cam and lifters, it might help others when they are concerned about the extra few dollars break-in oil cost.

Be sure to use plenty of cam lube again and break-in oil on the next go round, and don't be worried about the rpm. Splash oil is the only way the lobes get oil, and you need as much oil as possible ASAP.

We have all been in your shoes, I am just glad you stepped up and told about it, you may have saved others the same trouble.

As for why only one lobe? The hardened surface is only a few thousands deep, it only takes a few scratches to get under it and then it snowballs from there.

Joe

Thanks guys for all the replys. I'll defiantly be starting over with it and cleaning everything. I'll post some pictures when I get it apart.
Tom

didn't chevs of the 40's send you instructions with the cam? Any cam manufacturer will have the full cam break in procedure on their websites.

I found this CAMSHAFT Glossary
Some may find it helpful.

This Cam Glossary was created by Elgin Cams to help provide our clients a tool which they can in turn use to decipher all the cryptic acronyms used in the cam grinding industry. Hope you find it useful.

Glossary Link:

http://www.elgincams.com/glossary.html

GP

Finally had some time to pull the engine out and tear it down. I found that the center lobs look ok but the outer ones were worn bad.

I took the plugs out of the block and cleaned everything real good. Now time to start ordering parts.

What cam and lifters have you guys used? Not sure if I want to go with another new cam from the same place as before or try somewhere else. I know I didn't break it in right but have also read where others have had issues with the new cams.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!!
Thanks everyone.
Tom

Tom, Could you post some pics of the camshaft
and lifters ?
I'm sure a lot of folks here would
like to see exactly what happened.

Egge Machine Co.
has a cam & lifters for your
216 Chevy.

photo @ photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/...MachineCompany-CHEVROLET_zps70d29dca.jpg

Your original cam was forged steel
so, the distributor drive gear was
hardened steel to MATCH the original
forged steel camshaft.

Any new camshaft you buy will be a CAST cam.

So, a new distributor gear made for
CAST camshafts will be needed.

How did the rod & main bearings look ?

How about the insides of the oil pump ?

That was a lot of camshaft lobe metal
floating around the insides of your engine.

George
in
New Jersey

George the mains and rods look good as well as the pump. Looks like I was lucky per say. I will post some pics soon.

Thanks for the reply
Tom

Here is a link to some pics.

http://s975.photobucket.com/user/hitnmiss1/library/Mobile%20Uploads

Tom, I'd say, you were more than lucky.

Here's a photo of the distributor drive
gear you will need with a new cast cam.

photo@photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/216%20Chevrolet/DistGear1929578_zpsc2a7f1a8.jpg

Chicago Auto Parts
Saint Ann, Ill.
phone:815-614-3122
They have ( 1 ) GM # 1929578 - Dist. Drive Gear

If Chicago Auto Parts
can't help with the gear.

email: Bruce Bugay in Virginia
[email protected]
Antique Chevy Parts seller.
I highly recommend him.

You don't want any more metal to metal incompatibility.

Play it safe & pick up a new drive.

George
in
New Jersey

So how did they get around this problem at the factory?

Truckernix,

GM got around it by making a:

1.) a cast alloy distributor gear
for cast alloy camshafts
GM # 1929578

&

2.) a steel distributor gear
for forged steel camshafts
GM # 1865180

photo@photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/216%20Chevrolet/dist_gear__zpsf48c6be6.jpg

GP

So as far as the lobe wear, you are saying that the forged steel camshaft allowed the factory to just put them together and ship. Also, these days the new camshafts are cast correct?

From your post, it sounds like Egge has this all figured out?

I am curious about this because I have heard of so many failures and people are blaming the oil and the cam quality.

It is a oil problem. Your cam would be fine had you used the correct oil and break-in procedure. Don't think you can buy the correct material camshaft and not break it in or use the correct oil, or you will be right back where you are.

Joe

Joe H.,
The old used LIFTERS from the original cam
were used on a NEW CAST camshaft.
The old lifters were intended for a FORGED STEEL cam.

Correct break-in procedure was not followed
&
there was lifter face to cam lobe incompatibility.

I disagree that if the correct break-in procedures
were followed everything would have been OK.

He still had used & the incorrect lifters.

Oil chemistry & correct break-in can't overcome the
use of used & chilled iron base lifters
on the new cast cam.

By using the old chilled iron lifters
he still had a hand grenade in the making
even if correct oil & break-in procedures
were followed to a tee.

GP

I understand I did several things wrong on my first cam like using old lifters and not doing a proper break in and no oil additive.

Ok here is where I'm at right now. I ordered a new cam and lifters from the same place. I received the cam its a new one made in the USA the box says engine pro. The lifters are new old stock never been opened and still had the part number of GMC 839263. This was the only lifter they offer.

I looked at the previous post from 54 3600 and he had a picture with a NOS box that sold on ebay. According to that picture the that part number is Chilled Iron Tappets for forged steal camshafts.

I called the place I ordered it from and they said they only sell the cast cams and even there reground cams are cast not forged steal and they have never heard that the lifters are for forged steal cams. They said in all the years of selling parts no one has had any issues with there cams and lifters. Go Figure

I'd love to here from someone who has used cams from Chevys of the forties and see what issues if any they have had.

I'll post a picture of the lifters on photobucket and add a link on here.

http://s975.photobucket.com/user/hi...20140506_161036_551_zpse612fd8f.jpg.html

Tom,

I did suggest that the chilled iron lifters GM # 839263
would be nice to hunt down IF you had your ORIGINAL
FORGED STEEL CAM reground.

As that combination would be a perfect MATCH.

My Early 1954 Chevy 235 has a Forged Steel Camshaft with
small journals. Cleaned & Reground to stock spec - Straightened - polished journals - & parkerized.

I do have a set of GM NOS chilled iron lifters
that were made by GM especially for my forged cam.
Cleaned & micro-polished very carefully.

I'm also using a NOS hardened steel distributor drive
gear.....why am I using the above parts ?

Because that's how GM built the engine originally.

On your rebuild.

Use plenty of assembly lube on the cam lobes & the lifter faces.
Use engine oil on the sides of the lifters & in the bores.

The good assembly stuff....below @ photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/216%20Chevrolet/81950_zpsccdb129d.jpg

Your parts supplier sold you a set of lifters
that are INCORRECT for a cast cam.

I can't help it if they are dummies
or
are they clever sales people
and
saw a way to sell a set of chilled iron lifters
to the inexperienced / uninformed.

Now, you have a set of the wrong type of lifters
for a cast cam.

Your putting together another hand grenade.

Make them take the lifters back.

Go to Egge Machine & get the ( VL19 TRW )
lifters that are correct for a cast cam.

VL19 TRW lifters @ photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/216%20Chevrolet/VL19_TRW__zps8181fcdf.jpg

Read the sides of the old ISKY lifter boxes.

photo@photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/vv57/glp0329/ISKY/OldCamCompanyLifterboxes_zps6fc62dc4.jpg

Best of luck .

GP

GP I have been reading your post and taking your advise! I posted the last reply to show you what they sent and how its miss matched. I didn't say I was going to run it.
I appreciated what you had posted because I had no clue.

Thanks for all the help guys.
Now its time to get the proper parts and get my truck on the road.
See ya on the back roads!!

Tom,

Egge Machine has TRW VL19 Valve Lifters

that are pretty pricey.

Here's a set of NORS

Johnson
Sealed Power # AT - 887
cross reference to:
TRW VL 19

These are for cast camshafts.

They look parkerized to my eye.

Asking price on ebay $120.00 OR BEST OFFER

You'd have to ask the ebay seller if this for a full set of ( 12 ).

Go to ebay: type in VL19 in the search bar

photo@photobucket

http://i669.photobucket.com/albums/...et/Johnson_Lifters_VL19__zps2f593db0.jpg

GP

Truckernix,

I would not trust a camshaft or lifters that were made in India or China.
Are the new cams today cast iron ?
The answer is YES.

I spoke to Steve one of the managers at Egge Machine.
He informs me that their replacement cam # VMCBV1
is a cast iron cam & it's parkerized.
&
Lifters # VL19 made by TRW are the matching tappets for that cam.
It seems that Egge Machine has it figured out.

As to your comment:
So as far as the lobe wear, you are saying that the forged steel camshaft allowed the factory to just put them together and ship.

I don't exactly get what you mean.

Please elaborate.

GP

GP thanks for the eBay info I've contacted him to see if its a full set.
I will be calling my supplier and sending the lifters back.
Thanks
Tom

I got those lifters from EGGE they were just tossed into a box, and nearly every one of them is nicked up, to such an extent I didn't even bother using them. Much like the rod bearings I got from EGGE, they were just stacked together in a pile, They may have good stuff, just need to get a better shipping department. I ended up getting a set of lifters from NAPA, They seem to be working fine, I have no idea what the exact composition of them is.

I still stand by my oil theory, too many of these are rebuilt with out any thought to cam material or lifter material. I full agree if you can get the correct parts you should use them, but cost would have to come into play along with quality of parts.

You must use break-in oil or an additive with modern oils, and you must follow the correct procedure if you expect any cam to live. If you plan on letting the engine set over night after installing the cam, use a paste type cam grease. The link above somewhere has the liquid type, which is really good stuff, but it will run off over night and most all of it ends up in the oil pan. The grease type will stay. Once cam and lifters are installed, only rotate the engine a minimum number of turns to adjust the lifters. It only takes one full cam rotation to wipe the grease off. Leave the oil pan off if all possible so you can apply more grease before buttoning up the engine. Do not crank engine to build oil pressure, use a primer shaft to spin the oil pump, again due to cleaning the lobes off.

Best of luck to you.

Joe