The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Driveline "Problem Solved" Rear Axle Not Turning / Large Pinion Ring is Turning ??

As Chris Sweet would say "Problem Solved"

It looks like I had improper carrier bearing pre-load.
I know rookie move.

I disassembled the differential.
Chris Sweet from the "Old Dominion Stovebolt Society" dropped by and we reassembled the differential.

We connected the drive shaft, started the motor and popped the clutch and the axles started turning.

Here are some links to pictures and videos that Chris Sweet took:

http://s826.photobucket.com/user/ja...ame-off%20restoration/6%20-%20Drivetrain

http://s826.photobucket.com/user/ja...ning-Axles-Spinning_zps40852ec0.mp4.html

http://s826.photobucket.com/user/ja...train/Motor-Running_zps02eb622f.mp4.html

Thanks Chris for all your help.

-----------------

Hello All,

I hope someone can help with this issue.
I have 53 1/2 ton GMC torque tube rear axle.

I just finished rebuilding the rear axle.

When I turn the torque tube drive shaft the large pinion ring turns but the carrier side gears (the gear the axle shaft goes into) do not turn.

I should mention, that I never seen this truck run/drive. I may have inherited someone elses problem.

I noticed the side gears do not have a key or spline to mount to the carrier/pumpkin assembly, only splines for the axle shaft.
How do the side gears get get grip on the carrier/pumpkin assembly??

Technical Info:
The pinion and ring contact is in the middle of the ring gear teeth.
The backlash is .007", the right side carrier bearing tightened two notches after seating the bearing.

Is there wear in the spider and side gear or the spacer ?

During the rebuild, I replaced the following:

Carrier side bearings
Axle bearings and seals
pinion bearings
oakey bushing and seal

Any help would be very appreciated.

Thanks,

Jay L.

There is a pivot shaft and two spider gears that connect the carrier to the axle gears. It sounds like someone has left the shaft and the spider gears out of the assembly. Is there a hole through the carrier that aligns with the space between the axle gears?

Somebody should be along soon with a link to a diagram of a rear end assembly showing the relationship of the parts- - - -I don't have one handy right now.

Edit: found a video!



Jerry

What you are looking at is the "differential". The bit that allows the outside wheel to turn faster than the inside wheel when you are in a turn. The power is transferred through all 4 "spider" gears. With the center block in place and the "C" clips in place the axles are secure and connected to the big ring gear. Just only one axle at a time. Always the axle with the least resistance to turning. So when you are in a turn the power is sent to the outside wheel. Or if you are on ice it will go to the wheel that is not helping. If you hold one wheel and turn the drive shaft you should see the other wheel turn. That is normal.If you can get some help to do that while you look at those gears you will see how it works. I hope this is helpful.

This should help:
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1948_51truck/51ctsm0401.htm

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for the quick responses.

The video made alot of sense.
The spider gears and shaft are installed in the assembly.
I noticed that there is alot of play in the spider gear and the two differential/side gears about 1/4 "inch.

With both wheels are on the ground and the ujoint in front of the torque tube is disconnected, I can turn the drive shaft (with a large screwdrive in the u-joint yoke) and the wheels will not move but the large pinion ring turns.

I am wondering if my spider gears and shaft are worn and need to be replaced or worst the carrier assembly ??

Thanks,

Jay L.

Pretty cool video.

It makes alot of sense when you go around a curve.

The spider gears, shaft and spacer are installed in the carrier.

I notice alot of play in the spider and side gears, approx. 1/4"

If I read you right, you turn the drive shaft with both wheels on the ground and you expect the wheels to turn. With that scenario, nothing should move. If the 'large pinion gear' (I think you mean ring gear) moves, then you likely have a broken axle. Need some more clarification of your recent post.
Carl

There should be virtually no slack in the spider gear/axle gear assembly. Something is badly worn, or parts are missing. There is supposed to be a hardened thrust washer between the back of each spider gear and the carrier housing, and probably another one between each axle gear and the carrier. If those thrust washers are gone, it would account for the slack, and possibly for the gears coming unmeshed.
Jerry

Hello Carl,

I know it sounds crazy.
The axles are not broke.
The tires are on the ground.

When I turn the drive shaft, the large pinion ring and carrier turns but the side differential gears (where the axle splines go into) stay stationary. The carrier assembly spins around the side differential gears.

I am beginning to believe that their is to much play inside the carrier assembly (spider gear, or side diff gear, or spider gear shaft or assembly itself).

This is only way I can conclude that there not enough tension on one of the side diff gears.

Jay L.

You are supposed to have a spacer in between the side gears/spiders according to the manual link supplied by Forty9. Do you have that?
Also, here is a Chevrolet Jam Handy. It does not get any better than this. Motorcycles over at 2:20

What you are describing is impossible. There must be some parts missing or at least some spacers out of place or installed incorrectly. Can you take some pictures and email them to me?
Jerry

When you say "I just finished rebuilding the rear axle." and we assume that it operated somewhat before hand, It means, of course, that you really did something major wrong. Why did you do this without knowing anything was wrong? Are you experienced at this? You sound like it and you sound like you have measuring tools. I ask because these answers can help us know what was and what is. You just need to go over the procedure, the proper procedure that is, one more time. You need to read the diagram and be sure it has all the parts, some may have been missing from it before you got it. Something big and obvious. CAN NOT move forward without that check. That's why Jerry wants pics. If you put all the parts back in, it would not do what you say it's doing. Being off by .010 or .020 will not make it slip teeth, just destroy something or growl.What is the 1/4" measurement exactly? . 1/4" from what to what? Is this backlash, tooth engagement depth, slop somewhere??? 1/4" is a big number. Is the spider gear shaft missing in your photobucket pic? (see pic in OP's profile/web page)

Try the procedure backwards. Jack up 1 wheel and turn it. What turns in the differential?

It wouldn't be possible to mix up the axle gears and the pinions would it?? The axle gears would have internal splines in them.
John

Hello Bartamos,

Thanks for your response.

I will post some pics.

I rebuilt the rear end to have worry free driving. I never drove this truck and I do not know if the rear end was working.

The spacer is installed in between the two spider gears and side gears. There are no missing pieces.

The approx. 1/4" play is in the drive shaft in the of the torque tube end when you rock the shaft back and forth. I will get an exact measurement.

I can see the pinion and ring gear contact smoothly but the spider and side gears seem to have a lot of play. When someone rocks the tires the spider gears move a little before engaging, the movement seems excessive.

Thanks,

Jay L.

Hello Jim,

I will get you the info. tonight.

Thanks,

Jay L.

Jay,
I applaud your bravery in diving into the rear end. However, it needs to be said for the benefit of other go-getters out there, don't try to fix a rear end until you know that it is broken. These axles are very reliable and long-lasting, and seldom need more than seals or outer axle bearings. If the ring and pinion, or other internals are bad, you will know right away when you drive it. I hope you find out what's wrong soon. I can't wait for the DOH! moment. When you get it back together and it works perfectly, you can scratch it off your bucket list, and look down your nose to your buddies who have never done it.
Carl

Jay, Carl is just jealous, plus he is right. Anyway, if there are no missing parts, then either you have the wrong parts, or assembled wrong or missing/not correct thickness shims/thrust washers. That's all! Now, "spider gears move a little before engage" First, a little is OK but I don't know what your "little" is. If it's big, that is probably spacers/washers/shims. The gears need to be closer together possibly. I believe the way to do that is spacing all four gears towards the center of the cage while keeping the bevel gear sets meshed properly. If you follow the manual/dimensions link given in this thread, you should be OK. You seem to have the pinion/ring mesh figured. Second: If they, in fact, do engage eventually, why do they not turn the axle? What happens AFTER engagement? What keeps the system, that you now know how it works, from rotating the tire/axle? You are the only one who can see/study this, we can't. Third: I don't know if your torque tube movement is fore and aft or rotational? I don't know anything about torque tube anyway. I am brave in some areas but not when it comes to differential set up. It looks like a: too many press and unpress, fit different shims, measure and white grease all over me thing.... and if I had an AD I would change to non torque tube in a New York minute.

Jay

I have to say I am having trouble understanding what the issue could possibly be. Like others have stated, that you can see and hear what is going on and maybe your description is painting the wrong picture.

However, I see that you reside in Stafford Va. which happens to be less than 20 minutes from me. So lets take the mystery out of this issue. Lets set up a time to get together so I can take a look at what is going on .

Wow! An invitation to meet and help. This place is not like any other place for sure. Let us know what you find.

I accept for him.

That is what this place is all about. Yes we all have something in common with interest in these trucks. You will find that the longer you stay here, it becomes more about meeting the people who own and hopefully drive these trucks.

Here in Fredericksburg, VA I felt like the lone wolf. As time passes, the line of trucks that meet on the weekends for hanging out or going for a drive get longer and longer. In the last 3 years the old truck population here has skyrocketed! May have enough to start our own weekend cruise in....

Anyway hopefully Jay and I can get together soon to solve this mystery.

Stay tuned!!

sounds like the axle splines and the side gear splines do not match

Also sounds like broken axle as Carl said. You have to jack up and hold one a tire and see if you can turn the other and driveshaft turns, try both sides. That way you can see what axle is, and is not, working. A broken axle, to the differential, seems like a tire is spinning and will not transfer torque to the other wheel. It would act as you say.

As Chris Sweet would say "Problem Solved"

It looks like I had improper carrier bearing pre-load.
I know rookie move.

I disassembled the differential.
Chris Sweet from the "Old Dominion Stovebolt Society" dropped by and we reassembled the differential.

We connected the drive shaft, started the motor and popped the clutch and the axles started turning.

Here are some links to pictures and videos that Chris Sweet took:

http://s826.photobucket.com/user/ja...ame-off%20restoration/6%20-%20Drivetrain

http://s826.photobucket.com/user/ja...ning-Axles-Spinning_zps40852ec0.mp4.html

http://s826.photobucket.com/user/ja...train/Motor-Running_zps02eb622f.mp4.html

I would like to thank everyone for the help and also Chris Sweet for going above and beyond.

Jay L.

Jay L. ,

When I click your photobucket links above.

This is what I get at photobucket.

Sorry, the requested page does not exist.

Please check the URL for correct spelling and capitalization.

GP

GP,
Good Catch.

darn word wrap was on when I cut and pasted.

Sorry About that.

Try it now.

Jay L.

That is too cool. Help and success!

This is been an excellent thread. There is a lot I did not know about the differential and still don't, but this thread and the videos have given me some encouragement to tackle my own. It has been noisy (the differential) for the five years I have owned the truck, even after a "professional" replaced some of the stuff and allegedly tuned it up right after I bought the truck. Works ok, just makes noise. Like most things I find it more assuring if I have been able to do it myself, and I will remember this thread when I venture out into that strange diff. territory in the not too distant future. Thanks again Jay L. for starting it, and welcome to Stovebolt! BTW if that good person who offered to stop by and help you ever gets to Idaho he can sure get a coffee or maybe even a beer if he stops by here. What a kind and friendly person he is. -- reminds me a lot of a Stovebolter ---

Dale

What a fun afternoon.

This is not the first time I have shown up at a "strangers" house to help with a truck issue. I am sure it won't be the last either. But given the number of these 3:55 swaps I have done, and the fact that Jay only lived 20 minutes away, I had to lend a hand.

I arrived at Jay's place to find his third member disassembled and prepped like an operating room. So we started at the top and systematically put it back together.

Got it all done, installed in his chassis and tried it out!!!

In the end, I found another local trucker to share my sickness with......