The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop HELP ME- IM DONE!!

GUYS,

I really don't understand it, i have a lincoln promig 135, i follow the instructions on the under panel i clean the metal bare, i pull the trigger and its russian roulette if i get ANYTHING i am looking for. Some days I can get positive results, most days not. i can run a bead on a piece of metal, i take the gun to the truck and all crap goes out the window, Im either blowing holes/ moving holes or not getting any penetration. i have watched hours of u tube videos i can weld for the most part things that seem to be JUST thicker then these old rusted cabs!!! I need some help!! it literally prevents me from going out to the garage to work on the truck, just knowing no matter what i do its just going to be a waste. Is there ANYONE close to midlothian TX that can show me with my welder on my truck what I AM DOING WRONG?? heck I can even pay you for a lesson if that will get someone over here. it can not be this hard

Hi Silverado

A couple of things with welding metal with a wire feed welder. You need a designated line to run just the welder on. Also make sure the power (extension) cord is large enough to handle the welder as it is running. I had the same problems with mine. Also if you are outside in the wind you will need to turn the amount of argon gas up to compensate for the air outside. Lift the door on the welder itself and look at the size wire you are running and the thickness of the metal you want to weld. Sounds like you might have the heat up too high. Also that chart inside the welder will have what the wire feed should be. Now once you get stuff going along you can always adjust it up or down to get the best results.
I had a 1954 cab outside that I fought with the same issues you are having. I also found that the ground clamp likes to have clean shiny metal also.

Good luck and keep trying stuff. Maybe there is a local guy that can stop over and give you a hand...

MikeC

thanks for the insight. As far as some of the things you touched on, I am welding INSIDE, WITHOUT Gas, using a FLUX CORE wire. the welder is plugged DIRECTLY into the wall. I am thinking I should go get a bottle of gas, maybe that will help. best i can tell from the chart I am set correctly, I just dont seem to be getting consistent results to hone on you know.

I find it best to weld a dot at a time. Weld dots a few inches apart, then when cool weld dots between those dots. Keep it up until the seam is filled.

hey charlie! long time no talk!....that is what i am used to as well, dots- then connect the dots, however if you look at my photos they look hideous.

THis may be a dumb question are you using flux core wire? Also if the metal you are trying to weld is to thin you will burn holes you may have to cut a little farther away from the rust to get to more solid metal. Like said above make sure the welder is turned low. On mine the instructions said where to put the positive and negative wire on the inside of the welder, one was for gas and the other was for flux core wire. I did as the instructions said but it did not work to well so I reversed what the instructions said and mine worked better. Hope this helps.

i am using flux core, I will double check the connections tomorrow, i think i will also pick up a gas bottle and see if that helps.

I never got the hang of flux core welding. Once I got the argon/c02 mix gas, it all came together. I have predictable results every time. I learned that a little on the hot side, but faster wire speed works best for me. A must is a really clean ground close to the work. Lots of very thin sheetmetal even butt welded together, no issues. I just cant get my welds to LOOK good. Good penetration but my technique needs work. That's what grinders are for!

has anyone looked at the weld i have put down so far, can anyone see where i am falling short? or how i should modify ?


DEVE i agree with you, anything thicker then these original cab parts (because they're thin and rusted) i like a little more heat and a faster wire, over the last few months i finally got to HEAR a good weld and now i know by sound if its right or wrong. its just i can't seem to get the consistency

The first picture shows welding to the rusted metal. I would get grind to clean metal first. I'm a newbie at this but believe the gas is the way to go. I bought my setup locally and the guy said it would be the easiest for sheet metal work. That seems to be true. Got a big bottle and still haven't had to refill.

Dennis

i saw for the first time tonight a u-tube video that said both sides of the metal had to be clean or the rust on the back would cause it to blow holes. I am going to be cleaning off the back side as well as the front, and I will also be adding gas.

Here is a thread on welding patch panels that may help out...

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53534

Double and triple check your grounding, clean the area and make sure you have a tight connection with the clamp.

Get your gas bottle and retry. Pics look like your all over the place with your welding dots. You are using an auto darkening helmet aren't you? Only long time welders seemed to have the skill to flip their helmet down with a quick nod of their head and still place the weld correctly. Something I learned was the darkness shade of your helmet. I purchased both a tig and mig machines. Purchased a Hobart mask with a variable darkness control. Lowest setting was 9. When doing low amp sheet metal welds I couldn't see where I was going. My welds looked like yours. Purchased a new mask last summer that goes down to 7. Problem solved.

clean off the rust and dot weld or switch to TIG.

alright, i got the gas, and tried again, still not happy, its better, i am not blowing holes any more but i must just be doing it wrong. i have the clips listed in that thread, i can even take two pieces on a table clip em together and weld them, but here on the truck...maybe i get nervous i dont know. i am running out of daylight today and tomorrow its back to work so I will spend the week looking for someone to show me how i am messing up!

If you are really into learning more about welding, there is a great forum with some very seasoned experts at weldingweb.com.

Get argon/c02 and your whole welding experience will change. You may end up like me sharing my love for the old trucks with making innovative and elaborate jigs to make the restorations easier. I don't get much done, but I am happy with what I can do. The weldingweb forum really unlocked that capability. The guys here are the best.. hang out here for sure, but when its time to make welding tables, jigs, etc... thereyago!

I am going to check that out now, as for the gas i got an argon /c02 mix and it took me about an hour to get used to it and get it dialed in and i can definitely see the added benefits, i think maybe my technique is incorrect, i will add pix shortly but today i got to the point i said screw it, cut the darn thing back off and welded it back on, I'm sure thats not helping! oh its a mess but I'm determined.

clean off the rust and dot weld or switch to TIG.

Hang in there. I have some pics on my website of some of my first attempts at trying to replace the lower inside door panel. There is no support across the entire door, so WOW.. are you ever screwed if you are learning welding and doing THAT! I cut that piece out three times, which of course warped the living crap out of EVERYTHING. I was very close to just finding another door. I did some research, YouTube videos, weldingweb forums, asked a lot of questions and yes, it IS technique. Now I butt weld everything and between welding magnets and butt weld clamps, and an understanding of proper technique all is good.

You are doing fine. Don't give up. Persistence is the order of the day!

Welding panels sucks as bad as adjusting doors, fixing latches, painting, rusty gas tanks, warped Rochester air horns... Having fun yet? Just wait until you're done.

HAHAHA! its aggravating but its still fun, I had a buddy of mine over today helping me, he's into old mustangs but does not own one because the initial investment is to high for a 67 fast back....he doenst want a rust bucket, I told him he's crazy learning how to do these things is what makes it fun, otherwise your just putting the pieces together like legos.

Hi Silverado

I saw the welds after they were ground down from the pics you posted...I would get that bottle of gas...that will help a ton...also make sure to re-adjust the settings listed on the welder itself.
What I do when I weld sheetmetal...tack tack tack tack...I dont every run a full bead. Also if you tilt your head on the welder so your approach is about 45 degrees from the metal surface that will let you fill those holes...
I only run a full bead on thicker metal like 1/4" and above.
Also make sure when you run the welder make sure the curcuit has nothing else running off of it. This I have found can cause issues also. I had a refrigerator running once and it cut in and my welder suddenly went away.
The sounds of a good weld are music to your ears for sure...I love to weld...would rather weld than wrench anyday of the week..
Good luck and keep us in the loop.

MikeC

Hey Mike, I hear ya..over the last few months i have been able to decifer a good weld by the sounds so i am trying to hone in on that. as far as technique. i cut out some bad panels from my cab over the weekend and as time permits over the next week i will start cutting those into little 6x6 squares and cut them in half. then clamp and tack em back together, i plan on doing a few laying on the table flat as i dial in the setup then putting a few in the vice and welding vertically and horizontally. i will post those as they come out.

hey guys,

one quick question, what size wire are you using for your mig? im using .030

Seems decent for having a learner's permit. Pack that shiz with All Metal and move on. You've got painting to do!

Looking at the pics I cannot tell much as the welds (beads) have been ground off.

If you are blowing through, making holes there is too much heat. Best easiest simplest way to make it easier especially for a novice is use a copper backer. The copper plate will draw some of the heat away and prevent blowing holes. You can even place a copper backer behind a big hole and fill the hole. The copper will not melt and mix with the steel.

You can get the plates at welding supply they are expensive because they are copper. Copper is soft so you can bend to the inside of the curves. Eastwood has some with magnets that will stay in place.
http://www.eastwood.com/4-and-8-inc...287&gclid=cpkfibwg-rwcfucv7aodcxia7g

Eastwood (and welding supplys) also have devices like this for small locations.
http://www.eastwood.com/magnetic-hole-plug-welding-tool-not-for-gas-welde.html

If burning though the metal, especially the original cab this will help a lot.

Also, the smaller the wire the less the amperage needed so less heat, less blowing holes and less distortion. Wire sized .023-.025 is really best for welding 18-19ga sheet metal.

Hope this helps
Mikey

magnetic copper plates, I LIKE! has anyone used those? Im searching now for a non-eastwood version to see if i can save a few bucks

I've used them. They really do work. I got the pair shown above from Eastwood. Really only need the smaller one. Just move it more. I was also tipped by someone here to use a piece of copper pipe. You can cut it and hammer flat. Handy for getting into tight spots. You just have to figure a way to keep it flush with the backside. I use magnets for that. You can find those wherever you find the copper plates.

Dennis

watched a few videos tonight, this one old guy teaching a college class, quite comical actually, he was so dry. he stated the use of welding grease on the tip and nozzle is imperative to keep slag spatter from building up and reducing the gas flow to the weld joint. is everyone using that too? i thought that was when welding solid joints on thicker pieces where the trigger was held for longer periods of time.

Hey Silverado
I am running .025 welding wire. I am able to weld plates as thick as 1/4" with it. With sheet metal repair/patching I get everything lined and then I tack like every 1" or so and then go back and make little tack welds to fill in the 1" space between the original tacks. This will keep the warping down to a minimum.

Your welds dont look that bad really.

MikeC

alright another question, when i fit the panels together, they are flush, but through the welding process the seam dips inward creating a valley between the two panels, anyone have a video for a little hammer dolly work to get that smoothed back out?

Just to echo some of what has been said. Switching to gas with the MIG helped me a lot. Also using a copper spoon behind the steel helps prevent burning through. I bought some sheet metal just to practice with before actually welding anything on the truck. It will just take practice. The consistency will come with time.

just ordered some magnetic copper plates

Some hints to start with..

Welding sheet metal with a Mig involves what I refer to as "dot" welding. One zap at a time.

Before you even get to welding, this starts with panel fitment, you want gaps as absolutely tight as you can possibly manage. Every time you weld a mig dot, it is going to shrink in a circumferential fashion, pulling from all sides. If you leave a gap, there is a better chance than not that the panel is going to shrink together more as the gaps pull together. On low crown panels such as quarters, door skins, hoods, etc.., this means that as the shrink brings the gap together, it is removing some of the crown that supports that panel. Planishing out welds is enough work as it is without adding having to compensate for panel movement in the mix. This is a sure fire recipe for a nice big oil can in the middle of the panel. So, tight gaps will eliminate some of this work. The panel will still shrink at the weld, but it will be nothing like you'll see with panel movement.

Welder set up... You should see a full penetration weld after each dot, meaning a slight bit on the back side as well, no panel joint visible. Use practice pieces to get your welder set up dialed in, but insure you don't lay it on a steel welding table as that will become a heat sink. I like to duplicate conditions that will be present on the vehicle, so a practice piece should be in mid-air with no backing, just like most panels on the car. So I normally tack practice panels together with a couple tacks and then span it across the jaws of an open vise. This should give you as close as possible what you'll experience when you do start in on the good stuff on the car. Now undoubtedly you will have a good chance that you'll blow some holes. If you have the heat set high enough for full penetration and are blowing holes, then add just a bit more wire feed speed. If there isn't enough filler going in for the heat applied, it will burn away the parent metal. So try more feed speed before jumping on the "too much heat". Once you get a happy medium, if you see your welds are too large, both front and back, try to limit weld sizing with shorter zap times.

Once your panel fitment is perfect, and you're ready to weld in the panel, you need to start your tack at one end, skip a few inches, and tack again, skip same distance, and continue around the panel, aligning the surface of the two panels as you go. Many people will tell you to skip around to keep heat buildup down, and I have been one of those. But to demonstrate why this process needs to be clarified, if you were welding a lower door patch (for instance) and tacked either end, you have a much better chance of panel misalignment than if you move progressively across the panel, aligning the panel surfaces as you go.. Panel misalignment, especially from tacking one end and then the other, will result in dips, buckles, etc. that will not come out. So the more we can do for better panel fitment and alignment will reduce the need for excessive filler usage. Continue with the same sequence until the full length of the seam has been "tacked" in place. Then go back and planish each weld dot one at a time, in the same sequence as they were put in. Then use a 3" cutoff wheel to grind down the welds to just above panel surface. This gets them out of the way for planishing the next sets of weld dots. After completing the grinding, weld dots in between the first sets, repeat the planishing and grinding phase. When the weld dots are spaced at about 2" apart or less, revert from welding between the previous to overlapping the weld dots somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2. The overlapping will help to prevent missed spots and help to eliminate pin holes. Weld one cycle, planish, grind, repeat. On a weld seam I like to save the sanding flush for the end. If you sand flush after each individual dot, you will have a better chance of inadvertent sanding of the parent metal to the sides of the weld, resulting in thinning the panel.

Now, having said all that, any time your panel is pulling into a valley, it is from the crown of the panel shrinking as the weld and HAZ cools. Think of the panels profile as an arc, and when the weld and HAZ shrink the length of the arc, it starts to become a straight line, hence the weld pulling the adjacent panel into a valley. This is why it is important to planish each weld dot after you weld it, while isolated from others. Each shrinks circumferentially, pulling from all directions. By planishing each weld dot one at a time, you are more effectively stretching the shrink back out, to help negate the valley effect you are seeing.. Doing them one at a time gives you plenty of room to work and insures the planishing stretches back out that one weld dot. Then grinding it just above flush gets that last one out of the way so planishing the next one that overlaps it will be stretched in the same "isolated" fashion. I don't have any videos (yet) on the planishing of the dots, but here is one on grinding down the welds. Where this is done on a plug weld, the grinding down to just above panel surface is identical, the sanding afterward on a weld seam I usually wait until the end, as described above..

Excellent explanation.

Yeah, that explanation is as good as it gets. weldingweb.com has a forum dedicated to learning how to weld. I spend a lot of time there.. at first it was to learn, now its more to help answer novice questions, but I still learn new things from time to time.

It was hard for me to understand NOT to weld one side then the other side of a long panel until I did the inside lower door panel on the 1950 (AD era) door. No support across about 28 inches using very thin sheet metal. If you weld an inch at a time, no matter how nicely clamped, magnet'd, you go, and you weld an inch on one side, then an inch clear on the other side and meet in the middle, you WILL be cutting it out and doing it again. The best explanation I can site for why you have lots of metal and no place to put it that way, has to do with molecular structure of steel. When you start, all of the molecules are pointed in one direction, but when you disturb the metal with heat, it causes the molecules to point in ANOTHER direction, and depending on how hot you get it, you have NO idea, PER weld! In the military, our drill instructor called this a CLUSTER F&^%!

So, peening, grinding, clamping, planishing, quenching, are all legitimate ways to minimize this problem. Robert, glad you are around to help us all. Thanks!

My 5 window cab not only needed every possible panel that is available, but when I got all that done, I got 53 doors because I wanted push button handles (changing the cab side too) and vent windows. Problem came into play when I discovered the doors were about 1/4" bigger than the door opening. So cutting the cab up the door seam on both sides and making them fit was a real challenge. done AND done. Good way to learn welding.. NOT! Try to have some other experience before attempting that! If you aren't having fun by now, take up another hobby! It has been a wonderful learning experience.

Yes, great explanation! Just two botched cab corners too late for me. At least now I can now confidently re-do them correctly.
Carl

wow!! Robert, Thank you for that. This is exactly my questions and my answers!! I can't wait to see your videos. I have really immersed myself in instructional how to videos and posts this week, re-tooled and am confident to knock out some practice pieces today after work.