The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay car wont fire, no spark

hey guys new here, i picked up a 54 3100 this past saturday. and been searching around and found this site. I need help getting the car running......

[img]http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o235/marcelo54/Picture059.jpg[/img]

first off i noticed it has a one wire alternator and a 12 volt battery but the original coil said 6 volts?! problem is it doesnt seem to be getting any spark. i replaced the points and the condensor, tried a different coil 12volt (had it laying around) the plugs, distributor cap, rotor and cables are new. when i have the distributor cap off and turn the distributor by hand i see a spark at the points. but it still wont fire. with someone cranking the engine and # 1 plug wire pulled and next to the block there is no spark.
i also tried running a hot 12volt wire straight to the + on the coil and still didnt fire. also i noticed that the battery's - terminal sparks sometimes when i push the start pedal in if that means anything?!?!

so whats up with the 12 volt 6 volt stuff? if it has a alternator not a generator does it mean the car has been switched to 12 volt? should i be running a 6 or 12 volt coil? this is the oldest car i've worked on and although i've wired cars before never messed with 6 volts stuff.

any help would be greatly apreciated

possibly cracked dist. cap - is the rotor installed ( & correctly - pushed down in the notch ? ) points set to .016 gap ? if u have fire at the points , it's a problem from there to the plugs .

oh , & yes a 12 volt coil , internally resistor type . frank

First off you need a ceramic resister in the hot wire going to the coil. You will burn those new points without it. Next take the high tension wire out of the center of the cap & hold it close to some metal. Open the points with a screwdriver & cross it over. Everytime yoy get a spark at the points you should get a spark out of the coil. Have someone crank it over & see if you get spark out of the coil. If you do & don,t get spark at the plugs then something is wrong with the cap, rotor or plug wires.

If it's sparking at the battery termials then you must have a a bad connection at the battery. You must address that. Without a good 12 volts with lots of current available things you want to happen will not. I think it's best to troubleshoot electrical problems one at a time and in this cae I would start at the battery.

First of all, welcome to the bolt! Nice truck! I recommend you take some time and do a search on this subject. Prepare to do a bunch of reading. These guys know so much, they can talk circles around you. I'm no expert on tricity, I just keep reading and learning. And trying real hard not to let the smoke out of any of my wires, they all have smoke in them, have you heard?

lol thanks for all the replies guys. i have been searching and even downloaded and printed out some wiring diagrams for the truck.

ok tried to get it running again last night. first off found the source of the negative battery cable sparking, the other end of it that bolts to the chasis was loose, so i undid it, scraped some rust of the frame cleaned the connections and the bolt and put it all back together. sparking problem gone.

car cranks alot better and almost starts but still wont. i checked the voltage going to and coming off the balast resistor on the firewall. it has 12v going to it but only about 6 or 7v coming out is this normal? or is it bad? i set the points again at .019 as was mentioned. all the plugs are new and gaped at .35, one thing i noticed though is the firing order. what i found from searching is 153624 now my question is which plug is number 1 on the cap? is it the one right by the negative screw that goes to the coil? i didnt mess with the wires but thought maybe someone had the firing order wrong? it's set up as follows:

begining with the first plug right after the negative screw on the distributor counter clock wise 3 5 1 4 2 6
is that correct?

well i think i'm getting closer thanks again for all the help guys!!!! this seems like a great board!

CooleThanEthan,

Good troubleshooting. There should either be two wires on the coil side of the ballast resistor, or two wires on the + side of the coil. The ignition wants to see a full 12 volts on START.

Your correct on the firing order, 153624. The cylinders are numbered from front to back, but there is no arbitrary position on the distributor cap for plug #1. It can be anywhere, and is dependent on who set it up. If the truck ran before, and nothing was changed, it should run again.

There is a simple procedure to find TDC on cylinder #1 and position the distributor and #1 plug position to match it...but it isn't necessary. Your 'no spark' problem is different than a timing issue. If you get spark and it runs, you are home free. If you get spark and it exhibits timing problems, address it then.

Stuart

Welcome to the 'bolt! Nice truck.
Your resistor is doing it's job - it's good.
The rotor turns clockwise, so looking at your numbers the firing order is correct. So, are your plugs firing? To check this, take one of them out, put the wire back on and ground the plug to the block (I like to use insulated pliers for this) while someone cranks the engine. You should see a nice blue spark in the gap when it fires. If you see "fire", the next step would be to make sure your timing is right. With #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke, the rotor should be pointing to the #1 wire on the cap.

If your don't have "fire", you could have a bad coil, grounded points, or a bad condenser.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

You said you picked the truck up. Have you had the motor running. If you have then the plug wire are correct. If not, you have to make sure they are correct. You have not said what kind of engine is in the truck. Lets start with that.

ok guys got it running finally yestersay, at least for a few seconds. not getting any fuel but she'll run as long as someone poors gas in the carb. i ended up making brand new 2 gauge negative and positive battery cable with new post terminals, changed all the gas lines, new fuel filter, regapped the plugs, and points. ran new wires from ignition to ballast, ballast to coil and coil to distributor. tighten all electrical connections and tried it and she fired first time.

i also ran a compression test and was disapointed. dont know what compression these engines are suppost to have but the range was lowest 15lbs and highest 35lbs. all 6 cylinders were in that range. seems really low to me?!?!?!

i'm odering a new fuel pump and carb rebuild kit today....

The engine won't run if the compression is actually as low as you measured. Either your equipment or your technique is faulty.

CooleThanEthan,

Great news on getting it running. I don't think your compression readings are valid. It is doubtful the engine could run at those figures.

Try a search in the Engine & Driveline forum using something like 'compression test'. You might get some pointers on taking the test to get better results.

On your fuel pump problem, could there be something in the tank or on the suction side that is plugging the line. A tap on the carburetor sometimes unsticks a float that is 'hung' and doesn't allow fuel through.

Stuart

on the bright side, 20# variation ain't too bad

Bill

thanks guys, well i installed a glass filter between the pump and the carb and no fuel makes it up to the filter and i blew the lines with air with no problems, i drained the tank and put fresh gas as well.

i used a brand new compression screw in type gauge, all the plugs were pulled and i turned the engine by hand and the carb plate and choke were both open. i thought the numbers were low as well. i'll try it again. but when the engine did run it sounded good even with no muffler

Turning the engine by hand isn't fast enuf, Marcelo. Use the starter motor with the ignition switch off. Compression should be 130 lbs or better.

well guys i'm happy to report that after working on this thing last night till 2am this morning it fired up and ran first try!!!! last night i put in a new fuel pump, fresh gas, rebuilt the entire carb, drained the antifreeze, new 160 thermostat (had none) and a new radiator cap.

sounds good! even with no muffler. one thing i noticed is noisy rockers. i got a new valve cover gasket and plan on taking off the valve cover this weekend and hopefully tighten/adjust the rockers. any tips???

other than that sounded great. to my surprise the gauges all work. water temp was in the middle. oil preasure was 30lbs at idle (with fresh 10-40 oil) and went up to 50-60 when i hit the gas. amps looked good although i dont know how that works since the truck is 12 volt?! i let the truck run for a good 15-20 min this morning

i've yet to try to do the compression test again. but hopefully this weekend.

so far:

new plugs
new points and condensor
new plug wires
new cap and rotor
new 12volt coil
new fuel pump
fresh oil 10-40
new 160 thermostat
new radiator cap
fresh antifreeze
new air filter
new fuel filter
new rubber fuel lines
rebuilt carb
new battery cables/ engine wiring
new radiator hoses
drained gas tank, fresh gas
new battery


so after all i've done anything else you guys recommend for me to change as far as the engine? other then a new belt which i have to go get. i think im also gonna replace the one wire alternator, it's working but looks really corroted, rather change it now then have it leave me stranded. next i plan on doing brakes and suspention.

thanks again for all you guys help!!!!

Congratulations!

Amps are amps. They don't care about volts. So long as your amps look good, you should be golden.

The oil pressure seems a little high, but then again, I can't remember what nominal pressure is on a 235 (I'm running a 216).

I'm happy if my 216 show's a pressure, noisy rocker's, yea maybe.