The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop How to install harmonic balancer w/o tapped snout?

Is it possible to properly install the harmonic balancer on my 250 L6 that doesn't have a tapped crankshaft snout without beating it on? Is there any tool/method to properly do it? Surely someone on here must know how?
Thanks in advance.

Hy LandonL. welcome, there is a special tool which stabilizes/holds all parts of the balancer together while it is being installed onto the crankshaft with a hammer, failure to use such a tool may result in the bond between all the elements of the balancer being broken. I don't know if the tool can be rented or not, but I have seen some catastrophic things happen to the outer ring of the balancer, when it was not used while installing the balancer with a hammer, hope that helps.

I am willing to buy it, any link to any information would be appreciated. Thanks!

The method I used was the BFH method. I've read that some will heat the balance in an over to about 200 deg for a few minutes then smack it into place. Just be careful about where you strike it & there shouldn't be any problems.

Hy LandonL the tool part number is J-22197, I assume it is a Kent-Moore tool, hope that helps.

Tom Langdon suggested I use a block of wood & hammer it on and he's supposedly an expert. Should I worry about damaging anything?

Hy LandonL, all I can say is, I have told you the factory recommended installation method, and given you the tool number, and told you about the types of failures I have seen. What you choose to do now is up to you.

i have had good luck with a piece of brass and a hammer. you can tell the change in sound when it bottoms out. i think the most important thing it not to hit on outside piece and take your time. i have wanted to make a brass one with the center bored out and just the right outside diameter for installing these. i'm sure the kent-moore tool is best if you can find it. i have also broke a matco harmonic balancer installer off in a tapped 292 crank, befoe it bottomed out! made me wish i had hammered it on.

Let's assume that force is only applied to the damper (it's not a "balancer") hub (which is the tool's purpose), not the inertia ring.
Let's also assume that the crankshaft is in the engine.
What do you think makes that nice, positive re-assuring "sound" when the damper bottoms out?
That's right - it's the main thrust bearing.
Does it always fail?
No, but it's also never a good idea.
To reduce the amount of force needed, chill the crank nose with a rag or sponge soaked with alcohol and left in the freezer, and heat the damper with boiling water (not a torch).

Is there some reason not to drill & tap the crankshaft and eliminate the possibility of damaging the balancer? I made up a tooling set to do that, and made it available to any stovebolter who wants to use it, for a modest deposit and rental fee. It's made the rounds of a couple of bolters already, and worked well enough that they were pleased with the results.
Jerry

YES - get the tool!!

If you have the crank in the engine, but it's not in the car, you can up-end it (very carefully) and place it on a thick wood block sized so that only the flange (not the block) sits on it, so the hammer will not shock the thrust flange as much. If it's on a stand, roll it up against a wall - same deal, wood block behind. It's not completely safe, it's just better.

This topic is like a sore that won't heal. Somehow Chevrolet service technicians got them on and off for decades and I doubt many of them told the customer that drilling and tapping of the crankshaft would be necessary. This method has worked for me several times with very little effort.

1.Turn stove on medium heat and place on burner with hub side down.

2.Lift pc. and hold for 5 seconds every 30. When you have to set back down immediately it's ready.

3.Put on a pair of oven mitts and slide it on. Keep a deadblow mallet handy in case it needs a couple taps to seat it.

4.Too much heat will melt the timing cover seal so don't over do it.

well, chevrolet calls it a harmonic balancer on page 6-29 of the 63 shop manual so go correct them. while you are at it you can complain about them making up all their torque data- which you don't believe. you assume the crank is in the engine? it wouldn't do much good puting the harmonic balancer on if it wasn't. yes i am aware the thrust bearing is making the sound change but if you are careful and don't overdo it, it's going to be ok. and i never said to hit on the outer part. yes, the tool is a good idea if you can get it. does it magicly keep you from touching the thrust bearing when you drive it on with it?

I think something was missed here. This is a 250, not a 235. I wonder if there are differences in procedures.

chevrolet calls it a harmonic balancer on page 6-29 of the 63 shop manual so go correct them

I'm not interested in what Chevrolet says it is, and especially so since they're wrong.
Is the crankshaft balanced when it's installed, and not if it isn't? If it's a SBC 400, or 454, it's true, but not an L6. It's a term of convenience, so that someone other than an engineer will recognize it in popular literature.

does it magicly keep you from touching the thrust bearing when you drive it on with it

I don't think you have a clear picture of how it works.

if it's such a popular term of convenience, why must you correct it? this isn't latin class or a spelling bee. isn't there a site for correcting old tech manuals that would be more suited for the joy of educating people than a old chevy truck site. they prob call it that because it balances out the harnonic and torosional vibration of the spinning assembly, not that it balances the weight of it.
i may not have a clear picture of how it works. but since the tool centers the driver section on the harmonic balancer and then it is driven on with a hammer, it has to bottom out- does it not? if you don't care what chevrolet says and they are so wrong about everything, what's the point of reading this site? to correct all terms of convenience?

I think the picture that isn't clear for someone is that the "tool" HRL mentions he offers is actually a jig set to "drill & tap the crankshaft and eliminate the possibility of damaging the balancer" by misaiming the hammer, just as he stated

Bill

i caught that, and it's a good idea. the original question asked was can it be installed without beating it on if the snout isn't taped. and the original "tool" discussed was the kent moore one designed to hammer it on- which also is a good idea. i just said i had good luck with a large brass drift, which i will agree is the 3rd runner up. but if you don't want to tap the snout or buy the kent moore tool, if you can find it, might look good too.

I've also included two threaded adapters, one for 6 cylinders and the other for V8's, that allow the damper to be pressed on, eliminating the possibility of stripping the center bolt thread by trying to force the part on by tightening the bolt. It's got a 1" fine thread, and a needle-bearing thrust piece that bears against the center of the damper. If you choose to tempt fate by hammering on one, go for it!
Jerry

they prob call it that because it balances out
Harmonics are not "balanced out" by anything, thus adding "damper" to the list of things you don't understand.
HRL's description of what his very useful tool does has nothing to do with using a hammer (it's to avoid a hammer).

I think the underlying problem is that you don't distinguish between things you don't like, and things that are wrong.

Panic,
I don't know what your problem is with Chev's description of the device but they have been making a great product for a long time and they know what they are doing. The harmonic balance is there to dampen the severity of torsional vibrations and it makes a huge difference.

As far as the rant about hammering on the front of the crank, that is the way GM instructed to perform the task in the manual. I have not heard of a case where the thrust bearing had to be replaced because of damage caused by this procedure.

"I think the underlying problem is that you don't distinguish between things you don't like, and things that are wrong."

There is nothing wrong about using the GM term "harmonic balancer", especially on a GM truck discussion board (balancing the harmonics). Check the Wikipedia and other on-line resources - a lot of people besides GM are mixed-up, it seems). This cmpany seems to stay in business using the term.

Balancing an engine is a distinctly different thing (and/or balancing components of the engine, or as engine sub-assemblies, or as an assembly).

I have installed many 216/235/261 harmonic balancers by gently hammering them on, hitting a block or large socket placed on the center of the balancer - no failures. One thing that I have started doing is putting the fan belt in place, to make sure I hammer no further than is necessary.

don't get me wrong, i am not knocking hot rod lincoln's harmonic balancer installer, and i do understand how it works. i have owned several of these installers over the years. his sounds very nice, a superior design, and it's great he is letting other stovebolters use it.
panic- what you may or may not understand is i was refering to the kent moore tool like shown in the shop manual. and it shows hammering it on. sounds like you have a problem with the way chevrolet tells us to install them. i know, why own one whoever wrote it didn't know what they were talking about. we've been down this road before, you pointing out all the things i don't understand and can't comprehend. you may be right, there may be a long list of things i don't understand. however, i am familar with know it alls who don't really know it all. you may be very knowledgable for all i know, but there is more to this board than jumping in to tell people they are wrong- so that knowledge seems to have limited usefullness.
i have to admit i have a couple of large pipe fitting i put between the rear crank flange and the engine stand. they are threaded and turn to put pressure on the flange when i install a harmonic balancer. and i thought i was being careful.

The thrust bearing has 2 surfaces active in accepting thrust 1 forward and 1 backward.I have seen several Chevy type thrust bearing failures but always failed because of forward force on the crankshaft.Clutch release force usually is the cause but I shared a problem with a working buddy on a Big Block that was caused by main bore misalignment.
Have any of you ever seen thrust bearing failure from thrust to the rear?I have never seen one fail from rear thrust.
Another possible detrimental force from driving on the BALANCER is due to the end force transmitted through the "cranked shaft" in other words the shaft is necessarily crooked like a bent nail and if the installing blows were heavy enough the 4 offset "throws" would spring backward and then return with each blow.A bending not needed in a crankshaft.
On the other hand the factory didn't drill the cranks until the 327's I think and a hell of a lot of balancers got installed somehow in the first 7 years.
I would not hesitate to install one with a hammer in a field situation but if it was in the shop it would get drilled and threaded

I got called in to a tractor puller's shop one evening to bring my portable line-bore machine and try to cure a crankshaft lockup problem when the main bearings were torqued on a blown 426 Hemi. Even after the line-bore, the crank would lock up every time the thrust bearing was tightened. After several diagnosis attempts, we found that the main bearing cap was bent, and was taking up all the clearance on the thrust flange as it was tightened. It turned out that the block had come out of a car that was involved in a hard front end wreck, and the crankshaft had taken a 100-MPH lick on the vibration damper. All that thrust had been transfewrred to the main bearing flange, bending thr cap. A news main cap and a little line-boring solved the problem.
Jerry

You can heat the balancer up to 200 with out hurting a thing. And if you are quick, it will slide on 75% to 80% of the way with out the use of a hammer. For the remaining little bit, a hammer and brass drift will seat it just fine. This was advice from the dealer that sold me the balancer.

As far as damage to the bearings, none. You would have to hit it hard enough to smash it, which is way harder then needed to seat the balancer. The whole radius of the crank is resting on the bearing, not bouncing against it, its seated the very first hit. You are putting no more pressure against it then a clutch does 100 times a day when you force it forward with the pedal.

And if you wish to drill the crank, its a soft material and can be drilled pretty easy. Just center punch the crank and drill at least 1/2" deeper then the bolt length. I did mine with a hand drill and hand tap. Being dead center is not important, just get as close as you can. I used a stud and nut to pull the balancer on the last time, it saves wear and tear on the crank threads. The closer you are to the center of a rotating mass, the less its weight causes a problem, so no worries about being out of balance.

So I have done it both ways, and nether one is any easer then the other. Heating the balancer was a lot quicker and was done in the truck! Pulling it on with a stud, means you have to secure the crank from spinning and takes quit a bit of effort to pull it on. Maybe a combination of the two would be the best solution! One thing about the bolt, its good insurance that the balancer won't walk off if the crank snout is worn.


Joe

I'm sure everyone will be happy to find out I avoided all disaster by having the machine shop properly tap the end of the crank snout.
This way I can avoid all possibility of disaster by safely inching the balancer on, I decided to not screw my first engine build over but cutting corners.

OK, you're halfway there. Don't drop the ball now by trying to use the center bolt to install the damper. You'll strip the new thread in the process. Borrow or rent a balancer installer that bolts onto the end of the crank and uses a heavier thread to push the balancer into position, or heat the hub as described and gently tap it into place. The threaded crank just allows you to secure the pusher tool.
Jerry

do you still have that jig. I would be interested in using it.

So you are suggesting not to swing the hammer 100 miles an hour? Got it. I'm with the crowd that heats the 'doohickey with the pulley on it' that goes on the front end of the crankshaft and carefully lining it up and tapping it into place. After all, there is no good explanation how millions of these things stay on anyway. Magic? Imagination?
I hope no one takes issue with my usage of the word doohickey. I spell checked. Its good. (smiley face goes here. I don't know how to do that).
.

A dead blow hammer also helps.

For what it is worth, this problem was very common on American cars around the early 70's. I can't remember what the root problem was, but most companies added "anti-stall dashpots" to the carbs. They just slowed down the last 1/4" of throttle travel. Without them the throttle would slap shut and the car would stall. With them the engine took 1-2 seconds longer to reach idle when you took your foot off the gas quickly and everything was fine.

Hey Jim, great point, wrong topic however. I'm assuming you are responding to the guy with two carbs on a 235 with a stall problem on sudden stops.

Yes, must have hit 1 too many "previous page"
I'll copy to the right place, don't think this one can be deleted.

This is funny stuff. This is a good example of someone not looking at a definition. A harmonic balancer is one and the same as a torsional vibration damper if that is your chosen term.
If you even out forces ie cancel them don't you balance the system????????????????????????
And since certain harmonics of the resonate frequency of the crankchain system can be detrimental, wouldn't balancing them ie canceling them be a good idea?
So I really don't think Chevrolet engineers are wrong.
Nor is Chevrolet wrong in the nomenclature they chose.

the difference would be there is no balancing effect with a damper, while the dampers that were used on some engines had counterweights, which actually affected the balance. A true "DAMPER" doesn't balance anything, it only absorbs the pulses and whatever twisting that occurs in the crankshaft and smooths them out. As a matter of fact, a damper actually hinders "balance" because it is flexible and isn't always in the same spot. "Balance", and cancelling out harmonics and smoothing out the pulses are not the same thing. I would not consider it a balancer of any form, regardless of whatever Chevrolet called them. I have worked with enough engineers to know that there are very few of them worth a plug nickel. So saying "ENGINEERS" did this or that holds very little water with me. Now don't get me wrong, there are some very good engineers out there. And most mechanical things out there owe their existence to an engineer. But then again there is some extremely backwards, maldesigned pieces of horrid junk out there as well. (all I have to do is look at the vega and the citation, to make my decision about GM engineers.)

All well and good, call it what you want, but you still have to beat it on with a hammer. That was the point of the whole post, how to install the thing.

Brokenhead is 100% right, the damper / balancer will not or can not balance a crankshaft, unless the specific engine requires a special unit just made for it. The inline 6 is not one of those special engines.


Installing them as Chevrolet intended is a common practice, hold them steady and drive it on. Thousands of them were done this way without bearing or block damage. There is always the chance it will happen someday, but odds are slim.

Joe

Bhead, I guess you didn't understand what I wrote.
Anyway back to the subject of installing. I spent a few hours hunting on the net for something I saw about 3 months ago. No I didn't find it, the searches always bring up the wrong type of installer. I saw a new tool offered that is kind of like a big c clamp that is used to install the old style balancers, that don't have a bolt holding them to the crankshaft snout. I think the caption said "no more hammering to install", to use that type of installer you have to have the oil pan off, and it presses against the balancer hub and the crank cheek.

If you read what I said this is all explained, the problem here is your use of the word "BALANCE". With the use of the word balance in the name of HARMONIC BALANCER, we/they are not talking about adding or subtracting weight to bring something into rotational dynamic balance. As stated above it is to "BALANCE, even out, absorb, cancel, smooth, try to eliminate best as possible" torsional vibrations that can be detrimental to the crankshafts health. WHY READ SOMETHING IN IT THATS NOT THERE????? And like you just said that is what a "damper" does or is for???

I have to agree with the hammer, unless you want to drill the crank, there is absolutely nothing to get a purchase on. There is no other real choice other than that tool someone mentioned. The only variable here is whether you heat it or not.

I did read what you said, it doesn't explain any thing, balance and damping are two entirely different things. They work together to create a smooth running machine, however they are not interchangeable in the context you were attempting to put them in.

It is a freaking piece of mostly metal which is carefully pounded onto another freaking piece of metal with a freaking piece of metal on the end of a freaking wooden handle. THAT is what the guy wants to know, not who can p*** hardest in a p***ing contest.

Give it up. If we want to communicate with 90%+ of the members/lurkers on this website, it makes inarguable/unarguable sense to use the terms used by GM.

For those with a good sense of timing and some understanding of the result/effect of heating steel the only tool required is oven mitts.

You are so very incorrect, in the context of the device we are talking about they are one and the same.
Just look up the websters definition. Balance can mean an evening out of forces. As in a teeter totter with balanced forces on both sides, or a scale, gosh man that's what the stinking thing is doing is balancing torsional forces ie canceling, dampening.

Like I said this is the proper use of the word balance.
http://physics.tutorvista.com/forces/balanced-force.html

Just look up "Balanced forces"
This is the problem with all the goofs that like to argue that a harmonic balancer is not named correctly, they don't realize torsional movement is a force that needs to be balanced, with a counter force. The device was simply named for its basic function.

Ah, so it comes down to name calling ?

Make sure the snout of the crankshaft is nice and clean and the inside of the balancer nice and clean. Then put some light oil on the inside of the balancer, Take a dead blow hammer and work the balancer on. It doesn't take as much pounding as you would think. You can heat the balancer up first which will make it go on even easier.

IF you guys want to debate terminology or the english language start another thread regarding that subject......

Thank you, Don! What's it's called and what it does aside, did we ever get the original poster helped?

the original post was from 3 years ago

che, bumpped it looking for the tool is all.

che
you may want to PM HotrodLincoln, but last I remember the tool was loaned out and not returned.
Good Luck

I think that HRL has three sets of tools.
I think he now "charges" a reasonable deposit and returns some/most of it after the tool is returned.
I think he had problems with people returning the tools.

I think he checks out this discussion board and might post a clarification and/or PM you about loaning the tools.

The tools he sends are superb.

Wow. This is one heck of a thread...
I'm a newbie and googled "how to install the harmonic balancer".
I then read this whole thing. I laughed, I cried, I had a beer and then laughed and cried some more.
In the end, I got my answer and I thank all of the participants for that.
I'm going to use a hammer, with some finesse, and the moment I feel the bottoming out I'll stop. I think part of being a good mechanic is process, but in some cases it's "feel" combined with a particular process. Multiple ways to skin the cat, but this is the choice for me and without a wild caveman swing of the hammer, I'll be fine.
Thanks for the info...

OK, folks- - - -here's the latest in the saga of the drill/tap tooling. I have 4 sets now, thanks to almost losing the first two I made due to a too-low deposit. They finally came home after an energetic letter-writing campaign and a suggestion that I might publish the names of the offenders here on the stovebolt. Right now, I've got one set AWOL in Hawaii, and it looks like it's not coming home despite an increased deposit. At least I've got enough cash on hand from the deposit to make another setup if I choose to do so.

I'll be more than happy to SELL someone a set of tooling- - - -just say so up front! For a loaner, I charge a $100.00 deposit and return $75.00 when the tooling comes home in good shape. It all fits into a $5.00 USPS flat rate shipping box. The kit consists of a guide sleeve, a diameter reducer, and two hardened guide bushings, one for the drill bit and another for the tap, (drill and two taps included in the kit) and a jackscrew and a nut to install the balancer once the crank snout is threaded. If you're installing an early 216 balancer with hand crank lugs, a little machining will be necessary to make a step for the washer on the center bolt to bear against, and the hand crank might not work afterwards without some modification. I have a dedicated adapter to push that balancer on properly. PM me if anyone is interested.
Jerry

Jerry, I heartily volunteer to go to Hawaii to get it....

52Carl
Dude, you rule. It's too much trouble, I guess to just answer the question that was asked.

yes there is the aforementioned tool (the probably kent-moore), Jerry's setup, a hammer with wooden block/brass drift without heating/chilling anything, heat the damper, OR chill the crankshaft, and heat the damper. that would be the 5 different possibilities. I have only done this with 3 different dampers, and in each case the main concern I had was the durn thang falling off. Just a touch beyond hand tight, was my problem, getting it back on wasn't an issue. However I used to live in Hawaii, and still have friends over there, and it is winter here, and not over there....

ALright guys, group hug! Shake hands, and agree to disagree.

To all,
I just finished using one of Jerry tool kits and am very glad I did. Just the idea of the balancer staying firmly onto the snout with pressure of the threaded bolt and some loctite after I used his pusher gives me comfort that the balancer won't work loose again, like it did.

Hi, New here and I have a chipped balancer on my Chevy 250 and I am planning on installing a new one. First off does anybody have recommendations for which brand of OE balancer to go with or should I send mine off to the guys that rebuild them.

Secondly the motors out of the car and I would love to rent hot Rod Lincoln's tool to drill and tap the crank snout. I tried to PM you but it wouldn't let me as I just signed up for this for maybe.

Make 3 or 4 more posts and you will have access to the PM function. That keeps the spammers and other goblins somewhat out of the loop!
Jerry

Thanks Jerry, I will keep posting. I am excited to get this motor in my Nova. I

Thanks Jerry, I will keep posting. I think i am going to order a balancer from 12bolt.com. Any opinions out there on these? I am excited to get this project moving forward.

I would like to rent the tool from Hot Rod Lincoln but I cannot PM him. What am I doing wrong?

You can't PM until you've had four posts approved. You're still in moderation.

How can i PM Hot Rod Lincoln to rent his installation tool? I tried to PM but it does not work?

Gotcha so I guess I can post here three more times?

Baldeagle thanks for the quick response.

I see what you did there. I'll forgive you for stretching the rules close to the breaking point.

If you cant get a kit from Jerry, try 12bolt.com, I just bought their kit and it worked very well, and reasonable too.