The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Glue verses welding

Hi. looking for some others advice. In the past I always mig welded patch panels in. The other day a fellow told me he uses Lord Fuson and glues his pannels.What are some of your thoughts, and if you glue what do you use. I'am sure some of you guys have done both. Thanks Tom P.S. Started patching the old 57

there are a number of different brand panel adhesives, all functional - it has it's uses, especially for production body shops, but the adhesives use lap joints, think about how much filler you want on your truck, if you're a decent welder you can get by with very little .... my main problem with panel adhesive is it has a very short shelf life once opened, and you really need a new nozzle every use, makes it expensive for a string of jobs over an extended resto

Bill

Not advocating it's use over welding per se just reporting my experience... 3M 8101 comes in 2 tubes you mix like JB weld. Easy to reuse later and lasts on the shelf fairly well.
I guess it's a work around if you don't weld. I still see it as having limited use on our truck, especially if you have ANY consideration for the person who gets your rig next...

I would be concerned about panel adhesive on a uni-body due to lack of structural integrity. You would be fine as long as you don't crash it. Structural integrity needs to be taken into account before you try to take shortcuts when welding as well.

Is this discussion about a uni-body construction vehicle?

"Unibody frames are stamped out as part of the vehicle structure. By contrast, in frame construction vehicles the frame is made of steel and designed so that the body of the vehicle is mounted on top of it."

only type I've used and had pros recommend is the dual tube "premix" that measures out the correct amount, like these, I'd be leery of mixing by hand, the amounts are more critical than with things like JB Weld

Bill

The good stuff like Fusor or 3M works great-no warping from welding heat, no water penetration, no seam sealer needed, etc. I still would weld any structural metal but for floors/small patches etc. nothing better than the glue. I only butt weld any outer patches though, sometimes you can see the different thickness in the finished paint if you overlap stuff there.

The metal will tear before the glue lets go. Dodge has been gluing on bedsides for years, GM glues on quarters also...

The present-day car manufacturers using glues will have the seam located where it is hidden from view, such as lapped seams from sail panels up on top of the roof, finished with a rubber insert or flowable seam sealer. One thing these manufacturers do not do, is to have a seam down through the middle of a panel, like is commonplace in patch panels. The issue here is that a glued seam requires an overlap. When installing a stepped flange on one side of the seam, once the panels are glued together this leaves one panel thickness on one side of the joint, and two panel thicknesses on the other side where the stepped flange is located. With these different thicknesses you have adjacent areas that have differing expansion rates. So any exposure to the sun, will result in the single thickness expanding quicker than the two thickness, and contracting faster as it cools down in the evening. Once this happens over time, the seam will show a "ghost line" in the paint at the divide between the different expansion rate areas regardless of any filler or paints over the area. So despite all panels glued by GM, Dodge, Volvo, or whomever you'd care to throw in the mix, they do not produce a stepped seam through the middle of a door, quarter, or similar low crown panel due to the inherent possibility of ghost lines.

Tom, don't be afraid of it for floors, behind fenders, inside the bed, etc-stuff is great. I glue just about any floor pan now.

Just to put things into perspective with these "structural adhesives" we are talking 3M, Fuser, Winzer, Evercoat and the like who make a 2K structural adhesive for auto body repair that requires a special gun. Not JB weld or anything like that, we are talking real auto body industry standards here.

These products are being used in the industry in unibody vehicles in ways that would blow your mind. First off, how's this one if this doesn't say it all I don't know what will. In BMW factory guidelines for repair, on a 5 series BMW they have to splice the front frame rail, cut the frame rail off a foot or so back and get your new frame rail cutting it to the same length. They give you a "spreader" like device that goes inside, sort of a "Backing" when you are butt welding with backing. It simply runs around the inside of the frame rail at the seam, it's about an inch and a half long so it extends past the seam 3/4" on each side (or about that). You glue this piece in there to hold this frame rail together! We are talking the frame rail that holds the front bumper reinforcement on the car!

This is straight from BMW, in their guidelines for repair.

We had a car come in that was re-ended HARD with the left quarter buckled up real bad over the wheel well. Upon closer inspection it was noticed that the entire quarter had been "glued" on. It ws done VERY poorly without proper prep to the metal, it still held on with it only failing at a spot that will rip spot welds out normally anyway. And this was done very poorly, and it still held up.

Here is a little science test my son did a few years ago. http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/welding-bolting-vs-gluing-panels-science-project-116090.html


And a little follow up because so many people wanted more. This test here was mostly my doing because I wanted to give it a "peel" test. And even that peel test proved that the bonding was stronger than the spot welds. But check out the original test link, it's darn interesting!

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/follow-up-peel-test-my-sons-science-project-welds-vs-145782.html

Brian

Brian,

It is nice to see a post from you.

I have to tell you guys, revisiting this science project of my son's when he was 10 brought back some great memories. Seeing him in that baseball cap, wonderful memories. He has some serious issues now and it's a bare to get him to do anything school related. It was getting bad at that time but by the time he got to high school it is really bad now. Hug your little ones guys.

Brian

Thanks! I'm back to working on my truck so I have visited here a few times lately.

Brian

I have questions and comments. 1 when you need to so called drill out the spot weld with the glued on panel how do you do it?
Do you use heat to release it?
2 Comment; even if the glue is using a molecular bond, there is only so much unit area, meaning a very thin penetration into the material its bonding. If the weld covered the same area as the glue did the weld will way surpass the glue.
3 Comment; a good welded panel can be made to look like it wasn't repaired, you could never do that with glue. I'm talking before putting any sort of paint on the bare metal.

1. If you ever needed to release it, yes you use a lot of heat. We have an "inductor" at work, man does that kick but for stuff like this. But do you really plan on removing it? I don't put replacing a part like that in my maintenance schedule like changing oil.

2. There is no way you could ever cover the area with weld like the glue. Could you do it with brass or solder or something, yeah I guess so, but why?

3. True......I guess. Your point?

You are arguing the use of bonding for some reason. Bonding has its place, so does welding, so does bolting, so does riveting, so does a wire tie. Don't fight it, use it if you can, if it works for you on your particular project if it seems like the way to go, don't if it doesn't. I see some great uses for it. I sure as heck personally not going to bond on a patch panel with a seam going across the fender, it WILL show up later as a "Ghost line". But then again, I have a beautiful MIG welder sitting in the garage, and torch if I want to gas weld it. But for someone without these tools to properly install a patch panel bonding it, they could get their truck on the road with a smiling face behind the wheel. I don't know if I will ever use it on my truck being I have that welder and torch, but I may, who knows. I am kinda old school so I doubt I will but who knows. I did use it a while ago at home bonding a plastic seat I made for a handicapped friend. It worked perfectly and he now has a "transfer seat" so he can get into my convertible and go to a show.

You may not make it out but notice the narrowed school desk chair over the top of the rocker. It's removable sliding into bushings installed in the rocker.

[IMG]http://i200.photobucket.com/al...n%20Sport/DSCF3438_zps01f68904.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i200.photobucket.com/al...n%20Sport/DSCF1422_zps223a5888.jpg[/IMG]

Here is the seat with the center section cut out. I then bonded the two sections together with "Plastic structural adhesive". I know this is no frame rail on a car or something but the man is about 6.4 and 250 lbs and this "glue" did a great job for me.

[IMG]http://i200.photobucket.com/al...n%20Sport/IMG_1436_zps44543908.jpg[/IMG]

There are places for it, lots of them. And the technology is there to do the job in places that would blow your mind. There are tons of applications in aviation bonding structural components in the plane you will fly in next time maybe!

Brian

Brian, you need to fix your last links, take the IMG tag off so the whole address gets on .... and I totally agree on the proper 2 part special gun type being as strong or stronger than weld, I've seen the product in professional use and repair

Bill

I see now that this post is about a task force truck. Are they not uni-body cabs like the AD's? By the way, my other concern about using adhesive as a shortcut to welding might tempt one to overlook rusty areas like the spot-welded area where the floor meets the toe-board. If the floorboard is rusted through, I would expect that spot-welded area would also be compromised by rust.

What A-D truck has uni-body construction?

"Unibody frames are stamped out as part of the vehicle structure. By contrast, in frame construction vehicles the frame is made of steel and designed so that the body of the vehicle is mounted on top of it."

A cab is a cab - a uni-body structure normally refers not just to the body; it refers to body and frame. Worrying about adhesive on the cab sheet metal of an A-D truck is un-needed worry with respect to critical structural integrity.

Carl, you need to study what "unibody" means, all trucks are "B-O-F", that's why they can work so hard

Bill

I have no idea how to post a photo here. I post them all over and never had a problem. These are from my photo bucket account and I have posted exactly what I posted and it works, it's an "Image code". I tried it a bunch of different ways and came up with nothing. Hmmmm. If you click on the links you can see the photos I guess.

Brian

[IMG]http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/...43908.jpg[/IMG]
"We're sorry, we cannot find the page you requested" is what comes up

photos can't be posted directly here in the forum, they need to be linked - because you've pasted the PB link to embed an image directly onto this page [the "IMG code"], our forum software has "shortened" the address with the [...] as it does over a certain length of text - you need to use the "direct link" address from PB without the [URL] tag on it, just the address

Bill

I guess what I'm saying is there is no place for that glue stuff on a TF truck, since there is no place on them that the factory did it. I could see it if you use it and then drill for plug welds or do spot welds that stuff would be super seam sealer.
Problem is it would be difficult to remove the panel. Why remove? Crashes happen you know.

I guess that plug-welding rather than spot-welding to replace an original spot-weld would be a non-no (if you have to have factory welds)?

And, it would certainly be wrong to use epoxy primer and urethane paint when doing a full repaint?

Original primer was inferior to modern primers - what original-style primer would you recommend?

Modern acrylic enamel top-coats are readily available and closer in formulation to original synthetic (alkyd) enamel paint - are they OK to use?

Truckrolet, It can still be used even though the factory didn't use it. There are a lot of places it can be used when installing patch panels or repairing spots, where it's hard to get in to weld or you don't want warpage.

There's always a place for new products such as this, sometimes you just need to think outside of the box.

46gmcpu (and non-purist others),

Do you think that type of glue/bond would work on the bed-side angle-strips that go over the sides of the outer bed-boards?

This would be the stainless-steel replacement angle-strip to the steel bedside?

Stainless to steel... You bet. And I'd make sure the two metals weren't touching while I was at it, basicly glue to glue contact.

tim, out here in stixville we panel-bond just about anything, and it works every time. It is holding the hood together on my John Deere as we speak. We've used it to repair anything from swimming pools, kid's toys, rifles, plastic headlight housings to keeping plastic handles on stainless steel cooking pots.

IMO, it is the best for floors in old cars/trucks-if you have ever tried to weld underneath a vehicle you will appreciate the glue. No dingleberries.

Obviously if you are doing a 100 point show car or you just want your truck just as it came from the factory, which I can respect, it's not for you. Just like there is no reason to discuss 671 blowers or Corvette IRS, it's not for you.

You would NOT want to plug weld thru it for a number of reasons, one, it would contaminate the weld making for a welding nightmare. Secondly, what do you do to remove the part that is glued on.........you use heat. So no welding thru the glue is not a good idea at all.

They do make bonding material where you apply it and then use a STRSW to spot weld thru it, that works fine because it's designed for it.

You know the funny thing, on your part about replacing the part if it were needed, a glued on part could be taken off very easily, with some heat. A heck of a lot easier than drilling out spot welds. And believe me I do that at ease being I have a Spitsnagle spot weld remover. Heating something up and slipping a putty knife between the panels is a lot easier.

You know there are cars being built today with the entire UNISIDE bonded on? And Roofs, bonded on. It's pretty interesting stuff.

Brian

Yep, that is one of those perfect places for it, you got the idea.

Brian

Thanks to everyone for the advice (especially, the advice based on first-hand experience). I'll give it a try.

Try this Martin.

My bad. The 1948 to 1951 truck manual (page 1-1)refers to "the AD UNISTEEL cab, the four major panels (the cowl, the back, the top, and the floor),with numerous reinforcing panels and braces, are all welded into one permanently rigid, integral unit." Now my opinion about structural integrity has not changed, as a serious blow to any part of a UNISTEEL cab will be transferred throughout the cab. So the cab is like a chain, it is only as strong as its weakest link. I do however like the idea about gluing on the bed angle strips, since the don't really do much.

I test products for a living. A few years ago a commercial kitchen hood manufacturer decided to try a 3M double sticky tape instead of continuous welded seems. We ran the hood through a series of grease fire tests. There was no grease leakage and all the joints were liquid tight at the end. The tape is used to manufacturer aircraft. The hoods were stainless and galvanized steel. They gave up when trying to align 16 ft lengths of steel any error and they had to scrap the parts. Adhesives can be stronger than the base materials.

Previous owner of my panel had cut windows in the side panels
http://fernscountrystore.com/fun/ferns-fotos/bella-the-ferns-wondertruck/

An old body guy suggested I use the adhesive to put patch panels in place. I used the double tube with the applicator tool - expensive but it worked great. Patched from the inside then applied bondo for the edges.

Came out great: http://fernscountrystore.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Bella.jpg

Bill is right about needing extra nozzles and the shelf life on the products.

Spot weld? I agree, but after you drill out a spot weld there is no possible way to respot weld it. A plug weld can be made to look like a spot weld.
Primer is not seen so does it matter? And there are things you could use if you want inferior. Personaly I don't think the original paints were all that inferior, baked on enamel or thermoset enamel was not and never has been available for you and I.
A glued joint will never out last a welded joint. Just add some rust to the mix. If all old cars and trucks were glued together they would by now be falling apart.
Just like all the faded plastic parts and peeling paint jobs on the newer cars as compaired to older stuff. You never see an old original painted truck with a peeling clear coat. I got a 58 with factory paint no peel throughs, and a 96 thats down to primer? Go figure, and thats with all this modern paint. Yeah right. Give the glue 50 or 60 years and see how well it all holds. Heat and cold cycling is whats going to mess up a glued panel, in the hot sun I know temps go into the 140 degree range and maybe higher in the southern areas.
How to do a butt joint with glue? Can't be done.

On the contrary-no water/oxygen intrusion in the lapped and glued seams, spot welded panels rust jack in between the two pieces due to water/oxygen intrusion.
But I am wasting my typing, you will never believe it anyway.

There is a way to protect the weld joint from what you mention.
As far as I know they aren't gluing together heavy equipment yet.
It would save the construction time at the factory if they did though.
My problem with any kind of plastic is, back in the day when everything was going plastic, and I complained to the salesman about all the stinkin plastic, they seemed to like to say its better and stronger than the metal. Well since then I've dealt with lots of broken plastic junk being used where only metal should have been used. When power tools went plastic that is when they became disposable, if the plastic breaks the tool gets junked, chainsaws are a good example of that. Plastics and glues are constantly used for things they shouldn't be used on. And the reason they are used is because its cheap and easy to do, not because its good and quality. Thats why a good quality restoration shop strives not to use bondos or plastic fillers, they use the good old body solder, thats metal not plastic.
You will never ever see a quality resto shop use that glue on a top quality resto, well unless they have to resto a new chevy spark or something like that, that was made with glue and plastic.
Find a good resto shop and learn from them how to do a top knotch fix. I really don't think Mark Worman would even dream of gluing something on his resto's.
Really though the day you can glue together a boom for a crane or blade on a bulldozer and all the other parts instead of welding them and they last 20 or so years pounding on rocks then you will convince me how good it is.

All this time I was thinking we were patching rust holes in old truck bodies, now you're building heavy equipment. I'm done.

OK, now you have my interest. I'm not a body guy, and until I read all of this, I had no idea they were glueing cars together. On my 66 Suburban, under the the sill plates, the floor is cratored pretty bad, but not clear thru. I don't have a welder or torches, and was just going to try and strengthen it some, without replacing. After reading this, now I may rethink it. It was mentioned that you were useing a commercial type of aplicator, but what brand or type of material/ applicator, works best for the back yard guy to use in this instance? I assume you just clean the original overlap metal to a clean surface, and glue that puppy down? Thanks for your help.

I'm in enough trouble already with my opinions on other things, but Im sorry, there is no way glue has any place whatsoever in vehicle restoration. Just the variable temperatures (expansion and contraction) alone would preclude even the thought. You even have to be careful what alloy metal you use when welding to ensure you are not introducing stress issues into the mix. Wow!

I have been known to grab the JB Weld every now and then for adding extra strength to threads, etc, but over the years I have seen way too much glue and plastic fail way before it should have. Best to take all of that enthusiasm and learn how to weld properly. Weld through Primer is what you were looking for.