The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop No oil pumping through filter canister

Started my rebuilt 235 this morning, while it was idling I opened up the oil filter canister and noticed that there isn't any oil coming out of the upper line while its running. Is this normal? My oil level looks good, all new lines. The line going to the top of the filter comes out of the block with a brass T junction. I ran the line out of the top elbow, and capped off the lower one. I'm wondering if I shouldn't reverse that. Any advice?

Thx - Bruce

Bruce,

What was the reading on the oil pressure gauge? The line to the gauge is normally connected the the T-fitting on the oil-filter line that attaches to the filter port nearer to the rear of the block.

Was oil dripping out of the rocker-arm assembly when you ran the engine?

Adding a photo or two of the installation: http://s1131.photobucket.com/user/carmental2/media/IMG_1076.jpg.html

no pressure gauge attached (yet), just an engine sitting on the frame, no cab or sheet metal. I'll give her a start with the rocker cover off and see if oil is running through there....

popped the valve cover off, looks pretty dry in there. Ran the motor for a few seconds, not seeing any oil come up through the rocker arm assembly.

Bruce,

Did you check if the filter lines and fittings were clear? If they were, you might have a plugged port in the block?

I think I would try to find a way to get a pressure reading when starting a newly rebuilt engine? Also, I would have tried to prime the system and observe a pressure reading before starting the engine.

Good advice sir. I'll poke around the tech tips and see if I can find a priming outline.

Thx - Bruce

Okey doke, took another crack at it. Pulled off the middle head bolt and it is girdled about 3/8 of an inch below the head, from what I've read this is to allow oil to feed up around the bolt. So I pulled out the distributor and tried spinning the oil pump with a drill, no oil coming out of the head bolt hole.

Took the side cover off of the engine to make sure I don't have the block with the internal steel oil line, nope, the block feeds oil up from the galley just below the lifters, no internal like as far as I can tell. Did notice that there is another little 1/4 inch bolt on the side of the vertical oil path behind the side cover.

Stuck a coat hander down the head bolt hole, it goes down about 10 inches before hitting bottom (just below the lifters).

Pulled the line that goes to the top of the oil filter from the rear of the block, turned the oil pump with drill again, no oil out of that hole.

Good news is that the lifters appear to be getting oil. Bad news is that nowhere else appears to be getting any. Any suggestions?

To add a little more info:

The 235 is a 1959.
Block #3769716
Head #3836848

whoa! Found a little more info from a thread posted in 2009. This is a great description of the oil paths in the 59-62 235.

59-62 Rocker Arm Assembly

I hate to think that maybe I have the wrong lifters installed?

I'm wondering why you would take the top off the oil filter while the engine was running.

I am wondering why you think you are getting oil anywhere?
You need to get a gauge on it.
If plumbed correctly the oil filter should be one of the first places to see oil.
I question if you are getting any oil pressure.

well basically cuz I'm not that mechanically inclined. Just trying to learn as I go. Have ordered an oil pressure gauge, should be here on Wednesday, unfortunately the local tool/parts stores don't carry them as part of their regular inventory.

Some of the thread's I'd read indicated that the oil filters weren't really that effective, and that they didn't process much of the oil so I didn't see much harm in peeking in the top of the canister. Kind of glad that I did. But I'll remember its a no-no next time.

So, if there is no pressure at all, what would your most reasonable diagnosis be?

First I would make sure your drill is turning the pump clockwise from the top.
Did you rebuild this engine?
You may need to pull the pan to make sure the supply line from the pump is hooked up and the pickup pipe is near the bottom of the pan.
It is true the bypass filter only filters a little oil at a time. There is a restrictor fitting limiting flow but it is plumbed into the main oil galley so it should have oil almost immediately.

I'll double check the drill direction. The engine was freshly rebuilt when I inherited it, so I've not yet seen the innards. Sounds like I may be digging into it soon. Ugh....

Thx Dave, appreciate the advice.

Bruce

How long and at what speed did you run the drill motor?
With a dry pump run at low speed it could take a little time to start pumping.

Yeah, if you are running it with no oil pressure, you will be digging into it real soon. If it is truly a fresh rebuild, you should really look into following the cam break in procedures. (available on any cam manufacturers website) Although I would think if you have had time to fiddle with the oil filter while it was running you, have ran it without oil pressure long enough to pretty much pulverize your cam. This being due to a couple of factors, one being at the first start, you don't idle it, you bring it up to 2000 rpm as soon as you see oil pressure. Which is why you prime the system, and why you need an oil pressure gage, (and a temperature gage) Two, all of this is dependent upon the oil flinging mostly from the crankshaft, and if there is no oil pressure there will be no oil flinging from the crankshaft, (well, oil flinging from anywhere for that matter) You really need to get the whole oiling system figured out before you try and start it again. By figured out I mean make absolutely certain you know where all the oil is coming from. and going to. With no mysterious black holes of knowledge about any part of it. As someone may have put the wrong pieces in at some point, and gum you all up. Make sure you know exactly what year you have and all the little idiosyncrasies involved with that particular year. Because it sounds like you may have one of those on your hands.

Sounds like good advice Brokenhead.

Unfortunately when I ran it, it was for about 40 seconds so hoping that I didn't totally trash the cam. Am going to try priming with the drill again, this time I'll run the drill at a higher speed and let it run for more than 2 minutes. Will also try blowing air through the oil pressure outlet and see if I can feel anything up at the rockers.

Gotta say I'm learning a lot, but at what expense...

Thanks for all the advice, really do appreciate it.

Well - put the drill to the pump and ran it for about 9 minutes at 2500 rpm. I could the drill build up a little pressure, but still nothing at the rockers.

Took an air hose to the oil outlet on the block, shot some air through and I can't feel any air coming out of the rockers. This isn't looking good...

Looks like you get to see what a 235 looks like inside and out.

Try this, before you pull it all apart. Take off the side cover and remove the line at the cam galley. Turn the pump with the drill and see if oil comes out of the fitting. If yes, then your line is plugged. If no then no pressure to the cam and that is not good. If your motor has the oil line like a 216 then this will not be useful. But while the cover is off you can see if any push rods are rubbing on it. That can save you trouble later. If this is an early 235 then you need to get the pan off and see that all is well in the bottom. The sooner the better. Use the manual for the oil path. Use the right yer to match your motor. Good luck. You may be OK you will have to look and see for your self to make sure.

1957 was the last year to have the tube behind the side cover, his is a 59.

So I just pulled the pan off, here's a beautiful picture of the oil pump. I might be crazy but I would think there'd be a line from the brass outlet on the oil pump over to that inlet on the bottom of the block. Just a hunch? I'll start scrounging for some diagrams of the oil routes.

Pic of oil pump in 1959 235

Your hunch is correct. Here's a cutaway pic that shows the line from the pump to the block.

That is too funny!
I thought that is what you would find.

So the meeeeellion dollar question: Where does a guy find one of those lines? I'll have to work my contacts at the local junk yards, see if I can come up with something, though it doesn't look like it'd be too hard to make one myself. Just have to make sure that it clears the lobes on that honkin' drive shaft.

you can make it out of brake line, just wondering how a person could forget one of the most essential pieces in the engine, I would highly suspect anything/everything else at this point.

How's that look now?

Oil Line installed

I'm feeling better already.

More better!
You may want to smear some assembly lube on the cam lobes before putting the pan on.

Good job sticking with it until you found the issue. Pre'68 Dave. Thanks for the Tip on that line under the cover. I learned something to day. Love this site.

it might be worth pulling the side cover and lifters to check for damage, at least do a pretty thorough inspection of the cam from underneath. What did you find in the oil/oil pan, any metal shavings? I find I somewhat hard to believe you could run a freshly rebuilt engine under this circumstance for even 40 seconds and have no problems, I suppose it is possible that just the oil shooting out of the pump got splashed around enough to adequately lubricate all the workings for that short period.

So the follow-up question has to be asked: Since the pan is off I may as well paint it. Back in 1950 (the truck is a 50, the engine a 59) did they paint the oil pan the same color as the block?

I'm pretty sure the grey/blue I have on the block now is incorrect but I'd like to be consistent. Seems to me they painted everything the same on the few original motors I've seen.

Thx in advance! Bruce

yes, motors were painted assembled, pan same as the block and valve cover

Bill

Brokenhead - we'll see I guess. There wasn't anything but nice clean oil in the pan, and the lifters look good as new (there was quite a bit of oil on/around them when I first pulled the side cover off). I was a bit surprised as well when I pulled the pan because everything underneath was pretty well coated with oil (dripping off). I'd also shot some Deep Creep down the cylinders before I started her up.

Perhaps its true when they say god takes pity on the ignorant. Now if he could just help me out with the IRS.

Thx - Bruce

I thought about this a bit, there was nothing circulating to flush out the bits and pieces (?) The condition of the lifters don't necessarily indicate the condition of the cam, which I found out after getting my head rebuilt, whereafter most of my exhaust valves seized up. Causing the pointy ends of the cam to show slight signs of flaking/spalling, whereas the lifters were pristine. But it was bad enough I replaced the cam. and the lifters of course. Which is why I suggested a thorough inspection of the cam. You, may have dodged a bullet, but I would perform due diligence, you do already have the engine half apart already.