The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay melting wire from starter to guage.why?

Recently a power surge fryed all lights that were on.Ireplaced bulbs and then ii melted the hot wire from the starter to the ampguage.Ireplaced it used the truck a couple days ago and pulled on ramps for greaseing.Ijust noticed all insulation gone on that wire again.IDEAS???

A short to ground is the most likely culprit, maybe in the guage? I had a temp guage do that abut a month ago.

no such thing as a "power surge" on a battery system Slow, you got a bad short someplace and ya oughta park it till ya find the problem - could be the ammeter, but I think everything else will be getting power from that wire too on a 42, so you need to start disconnecting and measureing the current until you find the culprit - could just be a bare wire someplace

Bill

you need to re-wire and learn about relays, mad electric & fusible links

see::::
> http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/onewire-threewire.shtml

http://www.stovebolt.com/bboard/cgi-bin//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002018#000022

http://www.stovebolt.com/bboard/cgi-bin//ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001833#000000

BILL's right !! about it just being a bear of a wire.....

finding shorts: c/o inliners web page
http://www.inliners.org/ >> tech section >> electrical shorts

Find That Short the Easy Way!

Nothing can be more frustrating or confusing than trying to find a short in you car's electrical system. Especially when it's not enough to blow a fuse but still drains your battery! Obviously, if you find a blown fuse, replace it, turn the key on, and the fuse blows immediately you've found the circuit within your car's electrical system that the short is in. However, if the draw does not create enough current to blow a fuse, than we have to find out which circuit it's in to fix it. Before I get started, my intention in this Tech Tip is not to teach Electrical Systems and Electronics. Instead, I just hope that this article will give anybody a systematic approach to finding a short. So lets get started... First, lets make sure that you have a short! Electrical systems have a specific route for electricity to travel along and any change from this route causes problems. If electricity can find an easier route it will always take it. So lets find out if the electricity in your car is finding a ground sooner than it's suppose to... What we're going to do is take a test light and attach the clip end to the negative battery cable and put the tip on the negative battery post. Then we're going to remove the

negative battery cable making sure we don't touch the test light. Now we haven't broken the electrical connection here. All we're doing is letting the current, if any, flow out of the negative battery post, through our test light to see if it illuminates, and continue on along the negative battery cable to the short. Word of caution, If you're attempting this on a computer controlled car it is very important not to break the connection of the test light to the negative battery post.

By not breaking the connection, the computer will maintain its learned driving strategy in the Keep Alive Memory (KAM). It will also ensure your computer will not have to go to factory baseline and relearn controlling your car's engine for maximum fuel economy and performance. While we're on the subjects of computer control, module equipped cars have a small parasitic drain caused by the modules' KAM. This is normal and module or modules can draw 10-21 milliamps (mA) with the key off. However...

If you have a parasitic draw that is in the milliamp range and is beyond normal specs, you will have to use an Amp Probe for a Digital Volt Ohm Meter (DVOM) to diagnose this and the method below may not work due to the very low current draw. But let's get back to those major shorts that give us all those headaches...

Oh! by the way, a DVOM can be used in place of a test light. Just ensure your leads are in the proper connections to measure Amps. Using this tool will not only tell you if you have a current draw when you're not suppose to, but will also tell you how many Amps are being drawn.

Okay, you've confirmed you have a short, now how do you find it? The first and easiest test is disconnect the alternator and see if the test light goes out or the DVOM display changes. Often old or worn out alternators ground themselves internally causing a short. If it does you've found your short and repair or replace the the alternator or appropiate components. If the test light remains lit or the amperage on the DVOM does not change, you have to try and start isolating which circuit within your car's wiring has the short. This can be done by pulling fuses one at a time. A fuse is nothing more than system protection. All the current that flows through a circuit must go through the fuse. By pulling a fuse we've created an open and current can no longer flow. Continue doing this until the light goes out or the DVOM display changes showing no current draw. Once you've found the circuit that has the short you must find where in that circuit the short is located. It's always best to take the least intrusive method to diagnose. Besides, who wants to tear out the dash or remove the interior just to trace a wire. So this is where a simple tool you can make comes in very handy...

When electricity flows through a wire it creates magnetism. We're going to use this magnetism to find our short! Many tool vendors and auto parts stores sell short detectors. The one in my tool box is from MAC. It's convenient for me because it also has an audible alarm which I can hear in a noisy shop environment. I'm pretty sure NAPA sells one also. The tool to the right consists of a 10 Amp circuit breaker with buzzer, wire leads, clips, and a compass. But for our purposes we're going to make our own which I believe is better than the ones you can buy outright.

To make our short detector, we'll need the following items:

1 x 20 Amp circuit breaker
2 x alligator clips
2 x spade connectors
2 x 2 foot pieces of 18ga wire
4 x 1 foot pieces of 18ga wire
1 x magnetic compass of any type
*modify length of wires to meet your needs*

MAC's ET251 SHORT CIRCUIT FINDER. Quickly locates short circuits in all 12v automotive electrical systems. Eliminates the need to remove upholstery and floor coverings. Operates through metal posts, panels, and other obstructions. Simple hooking to affected fuse posts; induction-type needle indicator pinpoints shorts. Packaged in high impact plastic box; schematic included


(Not To Scale)
Connect the pieces together as shown. This should allow you to hook your tool up in place of a fuse no matter what type of fuses your car uses. The reason I recommend a 20 Amp circuit breaker instead of a 10 Amp one is it allows current to flow longer and thus building more magnetism. This is important especially if the wire that the short is in is buried under items like the carpet, rocker cover, door panel, pillars, etc. The more magnetism we can build the easier it will be to pick it up with our compass.

At this point it helps to know how the wiring loom or wires run for the circuit that has the short. A schematic is very helpful here especially if it has component locations. If you cannot find one or your vehicle is older you will have to trace the wire(s) from the fuse on...but this is not that hard and you'll see why. The reason we want to know which way the wire is going from the fuse box is because we're going to use the magnetism that is built buy the electricity along that wire to locate the short. Place your tool into your fuse box or where you pulled the burnt fuse from instead of the fuse and turn the key on to the RUN position. Now what's going to happen is electricity is going to flow to the short. Because we have a circuit breaker in there instead of a fuse we're allowing magnetism to build along the wire. As the current flows through the circuit breaker it starts to heat up (careful the tool may get very hot). The bi-metal strip inside the circuit breaker will eventually bend away from the contact breaking the circuit and creating and open before any damage can be done. This is always associated with an audible "CLICK" from the circuit breaker. With an open, no current can flow through the circuit breaker and the shorted circuit. With no current flowing, the bi-metal strips cools very quickly and reforms itself back to it's original shape and touches the contact allowing current to flow and once again creating magnetism.

We're going to use this magnetism and our compass to locate the short. Here is how the this works... A wire (conductor) will build magnetism. A short will not. So we put our compass along the wire or wire loom and the current flowing through the wire is building magnetism. This magnetism will draw the north seeking arrow on the compass towards it (one way or another). We leave our compass in place until we hear the "CLICK" from the circuit breaker. When the circuit breaker opens the magnetism will be lost and the north seeking arrow of the compass will deflect back towards the magnetic pole of the earth momentarily. This deflection is important! Because once we get to our short there will be very little or no deflection at all. So after each click and deflection we move the compass about 6-12 inches along the wire, wait, and watch for the needle to deflect as the circuit breaker opens and closes. We continue doing this until we come to a portion of the wire where the needle is not being drawn towards the wire (weak or no magnetism) and there's no deflection of the compass needle when the circuit breaker opens. Congratulations! you've found the area where the short is located. However, you still have not found the short, but at least you know where to dig in. Expose that portion of the wire and locate the short in the wire. Here's a hint - if there's a bunch of wires there, shorts create heat. So look for the hot wire, hot metal, or hot component. Then look for any wire or component that may be broken, cracked, smashed, exposed, or punctured.

Now that you've found the short, repair it by splicing in a new piece of wire, fixing, or replacing the shorted component. You can cut & solder, use a butt contector, or electrical tape if you have nothing else. At one time automobile manufactures only recommend solder, however, the quality of butt connectors are so good today that many allow this type of repair. Now that you have the short out of your system verify your repair, replace the fuse if necessary, and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

That's all there's to it folks. Go for it!

Ps
GET RID OF THE AMMETER !!!!!!!!!!!
it's not a safe component anymore

Just poped back in and WOW.Now i gota read and get to work.As for the power surge,my lights got as bright as the sun and then blackThe dash lights were off but it burned the head and tail lights.This by the way is on my 51.

The power surge could happen if your battery momentarily disconnected, allowing the full power of the charging system to go to all the loads instead of being moderated by the presence of the battery. Got that T-shirt.

Usually when the ammeter wire fries it is the opposite of a short. The wilre gets loose and when the resistance at the connection arcs and increases, the melting begins.

What AWG wire are you using to the ammeter? All of the charging current and all of the loads except the starter go through that wire.

Have You by any chance converted to a 12v system?

I replaced the wire with new 14 gauge and replaced the amp guage.The diagram i looked at shoes that it conects to the + side of the guage.The amp guge seems to work but in the opisite direction.This is a 6 volt chevrolet.

Two things could cause the ammeter to work wrong. First would be that the ammeter would show charge when the lights are on and the engine not running, in which case either the ammeter is hooked up wrong or the battery is the wrong polarity, S/B negative ground on Chevrolet. The other would be that the ammeter shows discharge with lights on and engine off and goes farther to discharge when the engine is running, which would mean that the generator is polarised wrong and would cause a twelve volt differential between the generator and battery and fry wires.

Slow Rider,
the wire from the starter to the Amp meter should be much heavier than 14 gauge. The generator can put out 35 Amps to charge the battery through that wire. That means you should be using somewhere around 10 gauge.

Of interest, a 6 Volt generator with no battery attached and the field jumpered to ground, will put out 20 volts. That voltage will cause a headlight to go off like a flash bulb. I have done this myself.

I had been drive ing without the negative cable tightly clamped incase i had to quickly disconect the power.I ocasonaly had to twist or tap on it when starting,I asume that thats what fryed the lights.Ile swith to a heavier guage wire and re polarise the generator and see if this changes the gauge reading.

Slow Rider,
the voltage regulator contacts in the regulator should prevent that occurance. I would be suspecting a regulator problem. If you pull the cable while it is running, well above idle, the voltage at the regulator battery terminal should not be much above 7 volts. I don't have a chart in front of me but if you see a lot more than that, your regulator is at fault.

i agree w/ truckernix
that wire from the starter to the amp gauge carries everything. That's why it's not a good way (anymore) to wire a vehicle this way.
but
The AMP gauge wires should be at least 8-10 gauge depending on what you have to power.
remember: the amp gauge carries everything, as well as the wire leaving the amp gauge.