The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 57 235 Dies on Acceleration - Final Update/Results

Been fighting this issue for some time now. At speed (50-55 mph), when testing, my engine stumbles and bucks and stalls out when it encounters hills.

From idle, and while parked, I can rev the engine up to any speed with little or no stumbling. Sounds perfect. My driveway, however, is about a 6% grade. If I cruise up the driveway at or around idle speed, it will go all day long without a hitch. If I give it gas, though, on the same hill, it will stall and die. Restarts okay, but dies every time. I can sit parked and rev the engine on the same hill with zero problem and no stalls.

Specs: I added a Carter YF (exchanged out my Rochester), but it was doing this behavior before then. The Carter made this engine run like a top (while parked, that is). I have changed out the plugs, wires, condenser, and coil (added a ballast resistor). I also have a completely buggered exhaust system. I suspect leaks from the pipe that connects to the manifold all the way back. SWEET and I managed to explode the muffler (already split at the seams) while road testing it at hard acceleration on flat road. Ears are still ringing. I replaced the head gasket a few months ago, and replaced the exhaust manifold gaskets. I also added the missing manifold heat spring (which has never worked, to my knowledge).

This truck has been in a state of repair since I bought it a year ago. It has never had a true road test, though I have taken it on a few 4-milers before. Nothing with hills.

I have searched the forums and found everything from condenser to carb rebuild (float level check) recommended. Was hoping that, with this specific set of parameters, someone out there has seen the exact same behavior and knows how to cure it.

Thanks for any ideas.

Sounds like a marginal spark to me... Have you actually checked the carb float? You say it will idle or run at any rpm while sitting still (but not for how long)so gas would seem to be present which points to spark. I've experienced similar symptoms on cars with bad alt or coils. They'd run till the battery died enough to no longer provide proper spark and wound up on the side of the freeway before...

worn fuel pump arm not pushing quite enough fuel for the load, new pump should fix you up - been there, done that

Bill

Hmmmm...couple new things to think about. I have not checked the float level. I did not want to take the new (to me) Carter apart because I don't have a kit for it.

It will run indefinitely while sitting parked and revs just fine when given gas.

This is the second fuel pump I have had on it in a year, but that doesn't mean it's good. In fact, the first one I got from Auto Zone failed completely and the second seemed to work. I reworked the fuel lines last weekend, but don't think I got anything in the new lines. Why would it start right back up again, though? I am sure there's a reason, but I am a novice at diagnosis.

The alternator is brand new. Should have noted that on the first post.

All that said, should I get a new pump to rule that out? Or should I be reworking the points and condenser? My dizzy does have an issue in that the insulator that the coil connects to is long gone and the PO replaced it with a piece of bathtub stopper. I will look at the screw and arm in there and confirm it's not come loose. A dizzy is one of the things that's on my winter junkyard tour "must-have" list...

Thoughts?

Reds got a good point and you say your on your second one that "seemed to work"... probably one of the easiest source of the problem to eliminate as well.
I'm no expert just past experience to go on which is why I say electrical, I don't think it's dizzy related unless its a cracked cap, I'd be looking at the coil or ballast after the fuel pump proved good, then the float... that way it will be in the last place you look

I'd put a vacuum gauge on iit and see what it says. Have you adjusted the valves? Done a compression test?

your symptoms are exactly what I've experienced, all fine until accelerating uphill, which is when the carb is flowing the most fuel, much more than sitting still reving or cruising on the flats, because the engine is loaded more, using all it's power .... it starts right back up because it only takes a minute to get the carb gas level back up again, it's pumping, just not pumping max volume .... it may be that the cam lobe is worn, in which case you might need to build up the pump lever slightly [spot of weld], which is what I did with a used pump after experiencing the same symptoms with a 2nd original pump - and keep in mind that those "new" pumps are more likely "re-manufactured" so the arm ends may be just that silly millimeter shorter and your cam is likely 50 years worn

Bill

If you added a ballest resistor do you have a 12 volt system? A ballest resistor is only needed on a 12 volt system. One on a six volt system would cause a marginal spark issue extentuated on a hill.

Let's see, the problem you describe is that your truck doesn't run well when put under load. You describe the symptoms as stumbling and bucking. This sounds like a fuel problem. Yet you've replaced the fuel pump twice and the carburetor once.

You state that you can rev the engine with the truck parked on a hill, so it's unlikely to be a float level problem because that depends on incline not demand, and when demand is high the bowl won't be as full anyway, which will force the feed needle open further to compensate. Besides, the same problem existed before you replaced the carb.

I think red58's suggestion merits investigation. You could remove the fuel pump and measure the distance from the cam to the base and then compare that to the specs or to the actual fuel pump.

You should also investigate MtneerMike's suggestion. If you have a coil with a builtin resistor AND a ballast resistor, that's a problem as well as the 6 volt vs 12 volt problem.

Good ideas above, but have you checked the vacum advance on the dist, and just for a leak on the intake manifold/carb?

Thanks guys, amazing help here and it is truly appreciated.

I will check the measurement on the cam lobe to the base area where the pump bolts on. Assume I need to rotate the engine through a couple of revs to get the extremes. I know for sure that this is a rebuild because I bought it at Autozone and have little faith in it. That's probably because the brand new one I bought the day before failed right out of the box.

Red58, I like the weld spot idea and, as this is a relatively simple fix, I might try it early on. Can you tell me how you knew it was too short? Did you measure the cam lobe as suggested? Any other clues what I should look for? For that matter, do any of you have a suggestion for a top-of-the-line pump that you have confidence in?

When I replaced the coil (and added the ballast resistor), I replaced it with a coil made to be used with a resistor. The PO took out the bypass system and the battery was taking a huge hit every time it tried to start. It is definitely 12v.

Don Stocker, I have not done a compression test. Don't have a vacuum or compression tester, but will get those and work that angle as well.

SWEET and I adjusted the valves twice. Once before the exploding muffler incident and once after, on the heels of the head gasket change-out. It sounds like a well-oiled sewing machine at idle (I should probably stop using SWEET's name in these posts without paying him, but he's the guy who comes over and tries to help me understand what's going on with my truck. The man's a saint and deserves a medal).

I don't believe I have a vacuum leak, but have a hard line run from the advance to the carb port. The advance does turn the dizzy freely on acceleration.

I have a new condenser and set of points I can try in the truck, but think I will work through these suggestions first, as the collective thought seems to be a fuel issue. Would appreciate recommendations on fuel pump that work.

Incidentally, I have a clear (cheap) fuel filter on top that I can watch for debris. Have not seen that yet. And, have a brand new gas tank, if that helps.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. Keep em coming and I will report on progress as I go.

here's a shot of the dizzy and fuel pump:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/fourbrads/57%20chevy/IMG_1235_zps23802b09.jpg

-Jim

I don't have near the experience as most of you guys but thought I'd toss in my 2 cents with a little experience from a similar problem I had.
I had a carb that had a bead of water rolling around in the bowl. It all depended on the angle!
It took me forever to discover this. Though I cleaned it out and it ran well for a while, it did it again... till I drained and cleaned the gas tank. I don't know if it was condensation, rain or what but it was an aggravation and an engine stopper.
Anyway... Good Luck Jim! Keep us posted as to what you do to fix this, as someone else may be searching for results to their problem someday too.

Jerry

Just one more suggestion you may want to check...once when I replaced my fuel lines I created a "kink" in the metal tube at one of the bends that really cut down on the fuel flow. If you replaced the lines check this out as a possibility.
John

I just skipped thru the reply's, so if this already come up, sorry. Usually when it comes to a grade, and it act's up, I usually found out it was a plugged fuel filter. Carbureted and old Fuel Inj. Units both act the same.

Updates...

Okay, I took off the pump and was pleasantly surprised at the condition of my 56-year-old pump cam lobe:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/fourbrads/57%20chevy/DSC04215_zps64784297.jpg
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/fourbrads/57%20chevy/DSC04220_zpsacec81d0.jpg

Nevertheless, there was a barely visible shiny spot on the pump arm where the cam engaged, and on only one of the three stamped pieces of steel that make up the fuel pump action arm.

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/fourbrads/57%20chevy/DSC04216_zps827ed5a1.jpg

So, could still easily be the culprit. I carefully dried the pump and welded a blob on the arm, as Red suggested:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa397/fourbrads/57%20chevy/DSC04221_zps6b7e9461.jpg

Well, welded on too much and after a test fit, ground back most of it. When installed though, I could tell positively that the pump was engaged.

I spent the rest of the day finishing the pump-to-carb fuel line bends. Since I don't have a flare tool, I have been trying the "pre-fab" length lines and making sculpture out of the metal to make it fit the truck. Trip to Napa, and back into the fabrication.

Long story short, I have the line bent now, but have not dried it in. I will do this tomorrow and provide another update and, hopefully, test drive.

If this doesn't work, I will look at the ignition system.

More to come...

Jim

Update....

Got the fuel lines finished this morning, got everything buttoned up and test drove the driveway hill. Worked fine. Seemed to be able to accelerate with no problems and no stalling.

So, brought in back to the garage and finished putting my tools away. About an hour later, all set and headed out on the "real" test drive. Get to the driveway hill and, you guessed it, stalled out under mild acceleration. Got to the street after restarting and it stalled twice more. Mild acceleration. Varying choke did not seem to make any difference (cold outside), but it did make it possible to restart each time.

Stalled out twice more, this time downhill. Idled rough and managed to limp it back to the garage.

Walking away now, lest I be frustrated.

I have a glass bulb filter and see no junk in the gas. Brand new gas tank. New gas lines with zero kinks. The first time I started it with the modifications made to the fuel pump, it pressed gas through the empty lines and into the empty fuel filter in less than a second and started right up. So, that's something nice, at least.

Will replace the points and condenser tomorrow, if I have time amid family obligations.

Open to suggestions, as always.

Thanks,

Jim

maybe the timing gear is marginal and has "jumped" a tooth -- possible if its a fiber gear. Remove valve cover and bring up to #1 tdc and see where valves are at. The rocker arms should both be loose on #1. Or have someone crank it over while you watch for rocker arm movements as there could be worn lobes--see if all rockers rock about the same amount--wiped out lobe's rocker wont move much.

Edski, here is a photo of Jim's Timing Gear. It is metal and in great shape. I think Jim is on the right track with his changing the points and more likely the condensor.

The person who gave you that tip Jim sounds like a wise guy.....

"Wise Guy" would be putting it mildly...

It appears I need to invest in ale.....and maybe exhaust systems...just to draw you over to mi casa again.

But, concur, I think the timing gears are okay, based on recent evaluation. Will report back to all after change-out of the condenser and points. Hopefully tomorrow.

v/r,

Jim

yeah the aluminum gears just dont wear, so it must be a truck motor not a pass motor. just dont wear out the contact points plate changing out the points too many times

Thanks Edski and Chris,

Well, changed out the condenser this morning. Cleaned the points, which looked next to new.

Started and idled very well. Checked the timing (although with the choke on) and it seemed to be right on. Let it run for a few minutes, then slowly applied the gas to hold it around (a guess here) 1800 rpm. At steady (i.e; holding 1/2 inch of pedal and not increasing) throttle, after about 30 seconds, it died. It's like someone reaches in and turns off the ignition switch when this happens. Same as before.

So, that leaves the coil, ballast resistor, and points, all of which I will have to go and purchase. And all of which are less than a year old on a truck that has probably driven less than ten miles since I bought it last year.

Should I revert to an internally resisted coil and take the resistor out of the equation?

Looks like I am done for the day, though. Family to see to.

Thoughts are appreciated,

Jim

I'd start by putting a volt meter on the positive wire for the coil. Check the voltage before you start it, then leave it connected and keep watching it and see what it says when the truck shuts down.

you can by pass the resistor for now to take it out of the equation, just put a jumper across the terminals

Bill

Thanks Don Stocker,

Will give that a shot and see what the results are. I assume I should be looking for a sudden loss of voltage. Would that indicate a bad coil, as measured across the positive side? Or would that indicate a problem earlier in the ignition system?

Sorry if this is a double post, I don't see my 1st one...by-pass the fuel filter,since you have a new tank and lines...you can always add a "good" filter later IF this solves the problem....

Jim - if you write up a post elsewhere and paste it here you need to change the dropbox below the reply screen to "using HTML and UBBCode"

sounds like it just might be the ignition resistor, have you tried bypassing it? otherwise I'd think the voltage drop might be a loose connection someplace

Bill

Right you are Bill, though I posted it straight from a text file. lesson learned. Thanks for the tip.

I have not bypassed the resistor yet. Will try that, then start looking (again) for a loose wire(s). This Classic Parts wiring harness has had more than its' share of connectors that were over-crimped.

Strange that it happens while sitting perfectly still sometimes and moving others.

Maybe I'll try wiggling the ignition switch again to get it to act up. But it will idle all day long (I think) with no trouble.

Has me stumped, that's for sure.

remember that even sitting still, with the engine running there will be at least fine vibration felt thru the entire truck, enough to cause poor [oxidized] connections to become randomly intermittent

Bill

Got it.

May have to look carefully at the ignition switch then, as it is the only piece of electrical kit that I have not replaced on this truck!

More to come. Will test with the resistor bypassed and see how it goes.

Best,


Jim

Out of curiosity guys, why does my meter read 24-28 volts DC when attached to the positive side of the coil AFTER the ballast resistor? Is the coil producing the voltage increase? Or did I screw up something with the test leads?

Or did I just find my problem?

...Newsflash...I did screw up the test; Left the reading glasses in the house last night and was turned to the alternating current scale. Oops. Found this out when I did tonight's test:

Read the voltage drop across the ballast resistor; 14.2 volts on the feed side and 12.3v on the resisted side.

Bypassed the ballast resistor, as Red58 suggested (way back when) by connecting the two wires that go to it together (with the screw and nut that go to these loop terminal ends). Ignition on...15.5 volts.

Started and ran it for a while at idle and with rpms up. Readings varied between 15.5 and 15.8. No stalls, but still idling a little rough from (probably) my timing setup.

Got brave and headed up the driveway. Ten times, uphill and downhill. No voltage drops below 14.2, which happened as the engine bogged in first gear and zero gas (normal behaviour). Could not make it cut out like before.

This was not a comprehensive test drive as it was near dark, was 18 degrees out, and I was in my pajama bottoms and slippers. Plus I don't have front fenders, so no headlights, etc. So, the real verdict will have to wait on a comprehensive test run. Which may be this weekend.

Questions:

1. Is a 2v drop normal for the ballast resistor?
2. Is there any reason a ballast resistor would work sometimes and simply cut out others?
3. Is there another test procedure I can run that will confirm a bad ballast resistor, if indeed this is what you think may be the issue?

Always appreciating suggestions,

Jim

Eliminating the ignition resistor will likely destroy your new points.

Symptoms sound like a loose wire or bad ignition switch to me.

Try a jumper wire with aligator clips from the battery to the ignition resistor. Make sure you are on the line side of the resistor. Be Aware you will not be able to shut the engine off with the key should an emergency situation arise.

Thanks. I wiggled every wire I could get hold of while the truck was idling. Even those under the dash and on the ignition switch.

Are you recommending the above in order to test the resistor? Would the results vary from what I got by direct-connecting the wires that go to the resistor?

Jim

do you have a heat plate on it. I would check all my fuel lines, supply really good and also vacuum lines and the dizzy advance

Joker,

Thanks. I do not have a heat plate. I did free up the stuck manifold heat valve and added a spring that was missing there. I may have that set up wrong because I have never seen it move. But I have it set up the only way it will go as one side of the split shaft is large and the other is small, corresponding to the opening at the center of the manifold heat spring. And the open (hook) end of the spring is resting on the manifold "post" as it should (I think). I may have never run it hot enough to activate it, though. I have no body panels on this truck at all, so she runs pretty cool right now...

Fuel lines are good. All 5/16 steel, running from the aluminum fuel tank to the pump, then up the steel line straight to the glass bowl filter (clear) and into the carb.

I have only one vacuum line, running from the carb (a Carter YF) to the vacuum advance. I blew air through that last weekend and it is clear as well.

Would this likely be a fuel problem, though, if the voltage at the coil goes away when it dies?

Thanks for the suggestions and please keep them coming.

Jim

I don't recall you hot wiring it to bypass the truck wiring.
For a test try running a jump wire from the positive battery terminal over to the + terminal on the coil. This will bypass everything but the negative wire from the coil to the distributor.

Okay. Will do. But then, I need to find a way to test the individual components bypassed if it doesn't stall when run this way, right?

It did not die yesterday when I bypassed the resistor, but I ran an incomplete test. Did directly connecting the two wires that go to the resistor accomplish anything? Not sure my readings were indicative of anything that would point to the resistor, but I don't know.

Would a resistor (bad), fail intermittently? Then run again after an immediate restart? How many volts or amps are required to feed the coil properly?

Thanks for the help.

The resistor gets hot and then the short shows up, once it cools off it makes contact again. I'd go get a new resister and put it on. Its not an expensive part.

Absolutely,

This is my second resistor. I broke the first one installing it (ceramic and mechanical torque don't seem to be friends).

Thanks.

HOTWIRING STRAIGHT TO THE COIL WILL DESTROY THE POINTS!

Hotwiring to the line side of the resistor will eliminate the ignition switch from the circuit. I had an Ignition switch go bad on my first 59 gmc. It would cut out as described. I hotwired directly from the battery to the coil and drove 25 miles to work. I had to file the points and reinstall to drive 25 miles back home. After that I hotwired to the line side of the resistor. I then replaced the ignition switch and everything was good.

If you want to eliminate the ignition resistor, change over to a pertronics ignition. Going the pertronics route will eliminate the points, condensor, and the ignition reducer. A new coil will likely be needed to match the new system. You could also invest in a Mini HEI distributor. Bottom line... points are troublesome... espeacially when poor quality import points have flooded the Market.