The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Trying to get a 49 216 running

You could try and spray the stem of the valve with some good penetrating lubricant, then take off the rocker arm and use a soft hammer to give the tip of the valve a few firm taps. Then spray it some more and let it sit and try it again. You might get lucky but if it was me I'd get tooled up and pull the head and see what you have going on. Good Luck

If the #2 piston is on top of the stroke, the intake valve will hit it and refuse to move any further. Don't try to force it, or it might bend. Not likely, since it's almost in a perfect 90 degree relationship with the piston, but it's possible. It's possible to remove the valve springs one at a time and spin the valve stem slowly with a variable-speed drill motor and KROIL or some other strong penetrating oil to dislodge any carbon or varnish on the stem or the valve seat, but it's necessary to prevent the valve from falling into the cylinder.

Take several feet of small-diameter rope such as sash cord, pack it into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, and then turn the crankshaft to push the piston up against the packing. Then the valve springs can be removed and the valve stems can be freed up. This procedure is a lot simpler if the rocker arms are removed first.
Jerry

baldybenny, good sage advice I rekon

Jerry, thats a very interesting yet very do-able idea. I thought very seriously about trying it but I've decided when time allows, I'm going to declare to the truck, "off with zee head"
After letting that #2 intake valve soak for a couple days in daily applied PB Blaster it seems to have freed it up to where it opens all the way without having to force it.

As a last test, I dug out my radiator pressure tester and pumped the cooling system up to 10 psi and surprisingly, after I tighted up the leaking heater hoses, it held that pressure for over 15 minutes! I kept checking around the plug holes on cylinders 5 & 6 and couldn't detect any air/coolant leakage.
I also filled cylinders 5 & 6 with 4 pumps of oil then reran the compression test, they still wouldn't pump up over 20 psi.
#2 cylinder wouldn't go over 40 psi either.

So when time time allows, I'm going to pull the head.
In studying it, looks like I'm going to need to pull the side cover and perhaps the oil pressure tube that appears to carry oil up from the crankcase to oil the rocker arm assembly.
Probably pull the manifolds before the pull also.
Dave

One other test before you pull the head is possible, if you choose to do so. Get each cylinder near TDC on the compression stroke, set the handbrake and/or chock the wheels with the transmission in high gear, and put air pressure into the cylinder with a quick-connect air fitting brazed into a spark plug shell. Then listen for leakage at the carburetor, tailpipe, and oil filler cap. You can pinpoint intake and exhaust valve leakage, and piston ring leaks by where the escaping air noise is the loudest. Bubbles in the radiator would indicate a cracked head, or a blown head gasket. Air coming from the next spark plug hole in line shows up a head gasket blown between cylinders.
Jerry

Finally got to spend some more time on the 3100 and pulled the head today.
The cylinders looked OK, didn't see any large scrapes,scratches,gouges or holes but there is some surface rust on cyl's 2 & 4. The head was heavier and bulkier than I expected so I didn't lift it off cleanly. That said it's hard to say if the deposits 6 rusty water all around cyls 5 & 6 was there before or after the pull.
The head gasket does look corroded on 5 & 6 and it could be blown ( on the gasket to head side)
Theres alot of carbon and other deposits around all the intake valves, some had large chunks that "may" have been effecting the compression.
The exhaust valves on every cyl except 3 look burnt to my naked eye.
The pistons turn over easily and theres no unusual noises when I spin the engine via the starter so it could be that the lower end "may" still be servicable.
Heres some pics, opinions are encouraged
The engine just after the pull:
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Pullingthehead002_zps0e39ea8e.jpg[/IMG]
Closeup of 5 & 6:
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Pullingthehead009_zps185d9670.jpg[/IMG]
The head:
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Pullingthehead008_zpsa3effb1e.jpg[/IMG]
Closeup of 5 & 6 combustion chamber(s):
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Pullingthehead005_zpsc2dc922b.jpg[/IMG]
Clsoeup of 5 & 6 head gasket:
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Pullingthehead011_zpsb731f143.jpg[/IMG]
Dave

That head looks pretty typical for a stovebolt engine with some mileage on it. I'd suggest finding a good machine shop with an oldtimer who is familiar with these engines, and have them do a pressure test and/or a magnaflux check for cracks, do a good cleanup and a valve job. Pay particular attention to the valve guides, as they're prone to sticking and bending pushrods.

While the head is being reworked, take a stiff-bladed, razor sharp scraper and clean up the top of the block and the pistons. Be careful not to nick the top of the block. Check the block for warp with a straight edge and a feeler gauge. I think a maximum of about .002" gap under the straightedge is the desired flatness you're looking for. It's pretty unusual to find a warped block, but check it anyway. Good luck!
Jerry

I can't be of any help in getting your ride going, but was reading your post and looking at your picture. That appears to be a good, solid, old truck, and in time, you'll fins the sweet spot it needs to fire off. From what I've read, you're on the right track, and ther are plenty of folks pulling for you. Just remember to keep your chin up, it makes a better target. Make sure you let us know what you find.
Tramp

Jerry, Tramp, thanks for the insight and motivation

Haven't done any physical work on the truck or engine lately but have been doing some legwork. I've got 2 leads on a couple local auto machine shops but haven't contacted them yet. I'm awaiting contact info on both.
The plan of attack is to get the head checked out to see if it's serviceable then go from there.
I'm still debateing rebuilding the 216 or just moving up to a 235. Unless a good small block V8 miraculously lands in my lap I've ruled the V8 route out.

This daylight savings time and early sunset has almost got me hibernating....
Dave

yes, find the shop with the old fella, the new kids have not a clue...

brokenhead, thats the plan, but the two most highly recommended local shops that everyone remembers are now closed up. I haven't had any auto machine work done in decades, so this is a jouney in itself

I did a simple test on the head and have a couple questions for those in the know. I don't know if its conclusive or not:

I striped the head of everything except the valves and springs, I left them as they were.
I then proped the head up, upside down, to where the combustion chambers were facing up and somewhat level, installed the old plugs then I filled each combustion chamber up w/gasoline to where both valves were submerged in gas. Even tho the intakes are not totally submerged, there was just enough gas to completely cover them.
The results I got is that the bad cylinders, those w/low to very low compression, started draining gas just about immediately down around the valves & seats and out through the valve stems. The 3 cyl's that had the highest compression readings took longer to start leaking but they all eventually drained. All the exhaust valves drained sooner than the intakes.
I know that compression helps to seal the valves when the piston is on the upstroke so I'm unsure my test is acurate but non-the-less, it gives me some confidense that my compression problems lay w/the head and valves as opposed to the piston & rings.
Especially since my bad reading cylinders started leaking gas just about immediately and the Better reading cyl's took much longer before they leaked down.

questions:
1) should I mark and remove the valves for further inspection or leave them be for the machine shop?
I'm leaning on removing them and keeping them stored so I can identify which came from their particular cyl.

2) depending upon the valves and springs condition, should I consider regrinding surfacing them or plan on replacing them?

3) There is a slight covering of surface rust in 3 cyl's. The engine spins over easily and theres no unusual sounds, clunks, pings etc when I spin it w/the head removed.
Should I just plan on the rust being worn off by running the engine or is there a "mechanics trick" to shineing those cylinders w/pistons in?
At this point I'm not planing on tearing the bottom end down. All depends on the head and what I'm going to run into getting it servicable.

4) theres builtup rust in the channels and surfaces of the water pump, thermostat housing and the hot water-to heater shutoff assembly. I'll probably just replace the waterpump as I don't know if's still servicable but is there cleaner/soak that I can use to breakdown that hard rust?

Dave

I'd recommend leaving the head as is and let the machine shop take it apart and examine it. You might want to put some penetrating oil on a shop rag and see how much rust you have, if it wipes off you may have a slim chance of things working. If the rust is deeper and formed pits in the cylinder walls things will never be right. I've found in most cases when a cylinder head is freshened and put on a worn lower end you will really have blow by and in the end have an engine that you are really unhappy with.

Let the machine shop handle the disassembly of the head. Remove the rocker arm assembly only, and be aware that it will try to come apart in the middle. Machinists hate to deal with basket cases! Depending on how often the valves have been reground before, the shop might regrind them again, or reccomend replacement. There needs to be a minimum of 1/16" "margin" after regrinding at the edge of the valve where the taper meets the edge, not a knife-edge bevel which would burn away almost immediately. Ditto for the valve seats. If the head has been reworked a couple of times already, the seats might have been ground deep enough to need replacement. The valve guides will also need to be checked for wear, and sleeved or replaced as necessary. A good-quality machine shop will evaluate all these things and give you a cost estimate before they begin the rebuilding job.

If you can't find a machine shop in Knoxville that you're comfortable working with, contact Glen Prost, the owner of Headworks of Nashville. He's one of my father's former students from the late 1970's, and he's very familiar with older engines and what it takes to do a good head rework on them. I've done business with him for 30+ years with no problems whatsoever.
Jerry

Dan, Jerry, good info.

Found a local machine shop and dropped the head off yesterday, should know the verdict next week sometime.
He pulled a couple valves and remarked that he was surprised in their overall good shape.
He showed me an area in the combustion chamber that is known for cracking and a quick look showed a possible problem in cyl 6. Cleaning, magnafluxing and pressure testing will tell the tale. He does know a source for reconditioned heads should the need arrise. I told him money IS an object

I'm also considering dropping the pan and pulling the pistons out and perhaps mic'ing the crank journals.
a couple questions:
1) whats involved w/an engine pull. Is it better to pull the tranny w/or without the engine?

2) I understand these bobbit main bearings may have spacers that can be removed to tighten them up. If so can plati-gauge be used on them for measurement?

3) rod bearings, I guess I could read up (and will) but are they similar to the mains or are they like the newer 2 piece type?

4) good sources for new rings and pistons for a 216?

This machineist outsources his block cleaning but he can bore them out and do other machine work as needed. I would rather do "just enough" to get it running reliably but something keeps telling me to rebuild it. I'm pondering that
Dave

Do a good cleanup on the tops of the pistons, and see if there's an oversize stamped on top. That will be a deciding factor on whether to consider another overhaul. If it's .060" oversize or more, chances are another block will be a better choice over rebuilding that one again. Standard bore, or oversize cylinders in the .030-.040 range will have some more block material to deal with. Next, see about how much "ring ridge" there is at the top of the cylinders. If you can hang a fingernail on a pretty noticeable ridge at the top 1/4" of the cylinder where the rings haven't been running, it's probably time for a rebore and new pistons. New rings don't seat well or live very long in taper-worn cylinders. Most of the wear happens in the top 1 1/2" of the cylinder, which means the rings are constantly flexing to try to maintain a seal. At 2,000 RPM, those rings are changing diameter 66 times a second! a straight-bored cylinder eliminates the ring flex.

Shimming a Babbit rod isn't rocket science, just remove a shim to tighten up the oil clearance a little, and either check the fit with plastigauge, or use the old standby method- - -put a narrow piece (1/8") of .0015" shim stock between the rod cap and the crankshaft and remove shims until there's a very firm drag- - - -(not a lock-up) as the crank is turned a little. Then be sure to remove the checking shim, and move on to the next rod. The bearing material is bonded to the rod- - -no bearings to replace. Reground crankshafts require changing rods to match the smaller journal size.

A stovebolt engine comes out of the frame easiest with the transmission unbolted, and the bellhousing still attached to the block. Support the transmission with a jack as the engine is lifted and moved forward off the mounts. Pull the radiator for sufficient clearance to slide the engine forward as it's lifted off the mounts. good luck!
Jerry

Jerry has good advise on the about the cylinders. I would also add that I have had the best luck using cast rings and not chrome if you end up just putting in new rings. They seem to have a better chance of sealing up a worn engine.
If you read in the Chevrolet service manual they talk about adjusting the bearing clearance. I've found its more work to use shim stock but in the end you get a better job than using plastigauge. Seems that plastigauge usually leads to a bearing that is not tight enough.

Can't really add anything to the discussion but a HUGE thank you!!! I've been trying to start my 216 and never considered the problem might be the unplugged wiper vacuum line. I for one have learned a bunch from all the posters.
Thanks guys!

Got the verdict back, the head has several cracks in the combustion chamber areas of cyl's 5 & 6.
The machineist says he uses another shop that can weld "stitch" the heads up and he feels this head is repairable.
He said that they will be able to tell if it's repairable with minimal labor so I said lets go for it.
This shop is in Chattanooga and since he does so much work w/them they will be up by weeks end to pickup & deliver other jobs so I'll atleast save the shipping cost to Chattanooga.
Baring new valves the repaired head is estimated at around $300.
If it's not repairable, I'll be in the market for another engine, preferably a 235.
It'll be next week sometime before I know.
I believe I'll be pulling the block now
Dave

Update.
Hadn't heard anything in awhile so I gave the machinest a call.
Ironically he said he had just got off the phone w/the Chatt machine shop just alittle earlier.
He said they were able to repair the head but had to order new intake valves as the OE's were worn too much to salvage. Said I may have it back by next week.
We were both rushed so the convo was short & sweet.
Also said the price was still in the ballpark of his estimate.

So it looks like I'll be staying w/the 216 power plant
A friend has also offered me the loan of his engine hoist and engine stand so it looks like the ducks are lineing up

As usual, a question or three.
I've asked the machinest this and he's checking w/the shop that cleans his blocks but I'll float it by my fellow gearheads.

1) will acid washing, or whatever method is used for cleaning out a block, damage the existing main babbitt bearings?
2) is there a way to cover/protect them?
I know alot will depend upon the overall condition of the crank, rods and mains but the optimist in me wants to salvage/reuse all that I can

3) anyone know/recommend an east coast machine shop that can renew babbit bearings? within driving distance of east TN preferable.

Dave

Your bearing shells are removable. The cam bearings will have to be taken out and replaced along with the expansion plugs (frost plug). Some shops still have a hot tank with a caustic liquid that is heated to clean your block and some use a furnace to burn the stuff off.
If you decide you want to re-use your main bearings make sure to keep them in order so they can go back into their same spot and also make sure to keep track of any shims under the main caps.

Got the head back. New valves, springs,keepers, guides, reground seats and thoroughly cleaned. Ain't she purty
I was in a hurry and didn't find out how much they had to shave off to true it up. He's going to do some more machine work for me after the holidays so I'll ask him then.

[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Rebuilt216Head004_zps157deae3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Rebuilt216Head003_zps18f3ab4a.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Rebuilt216Head002_zps26f615af.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Rebuilt216Head005_zpsc61e6f72.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj521/Volfandt/Untitled_zpsd3e4903e.jpg[/IMG]

Well, after an extended layoff, I'm able to slowly get back at getting this old truck running. Lifr and other projects seem to keep getting in the way.
With the nice refinished head awaiting install, I got to spend alittle time cleaning up the top of the block and a few piston tops. Since #2 was at TDC I started cleaning it off 1st. I was surprised at the relatively small amount of carbon buildup.
My old Kohlers accumilate alot more in much shorter time.
A wirewheel knocked the ancient deposits off and put a shine back on the top. With the top cleaned I noticed a couple stampings on the piston top, An "S" was etched on the waterpump side and a #2 on the flywheel side. I spun the engine and brought piston #1 to TDC and cleaned it up. It also had an "S" on the front but a #1 on the rear. Am I right to assume that these are std OEM pistons and more than likely the originals?
Does "S" = stock size?
There is a slight ridge at the tops of the cylinders and I've decided on finding/renting a ridge cutter to clean it up and then pull the pistons/rods and do alittle measureing, then go from there.

Dave

Cleaned up all the old headgasket, carbon and whatever else on the block and piston tops and it all cleqned up good. All the pistons have their correct number stamped on top. Didn't see any cracks or any other visable problems w/the block or piston tops so I made a tactical decision to leave them in & continue w/getting it running then decided on full rebuild or replacment.
Theres no discernable ridge at the top of the cylinders so I hit them w/a deglazer and they cleaned up pretty good.
After a good cleaning & vaccum I filled the cylinders w/clean oil, easily rotated the crank to spread the oil up & down the cylinders and left a puddle of oil on top of the pistons to slowly seep down over the next couple days. The engine easily spins by hand.

Called my local NAPA and they'll have a full set of engine gaskets ready for my pickup tomorrow.
Going to pressure wash the water pump, thermostat housing, fuel pump and intake & exhaust manifolds and get them ready to reinstall.
I'll replace what fails
The rebuilt head is sitting patently awaiting reinstall.
Getting ready ......
Dave

Picked up the full gasket set from NAPA after work on Sat. It's a Fel Pro set and the few gaskets I checked for fitment seemed to line up perfectly, including the head gasket. Theres quite a few gaskets in the set.

Pressure washed the water pump, thermostat housing, manifolds, side cover, valve cover and fuel pump and after getting decades of gunk & debris off they all cleaned up pretty good.

Took the fuel pump apart and was able to clean and free up the check valves and the diaphram actually still looked intact with no cracks/rips. So I cleaned it up real good and bolted it back onto the engine. I won't need it to start as I'm going to use an electric fuel pump and stand alone gas can as my fuel source but it'll be a nice surprise if it did still wotk. Right now it's main job is to cover the hole in the block
I blew high pressure air back through the fuel line to the tank and got some kind of nasty smelling fluid to come out. Almost smelled like varnish. Must be what gas turns into after a decade or two or three
I'm going to pull the tank and either clean it out myself or let a pro do it, but at this point it's not necessary to try to get it started.

Most of the oil has seeped down past the pistons and when I easily rotate the engine by hand theres a nice thin coating of oil on the cylinder walls. It doesn't appear any of the rings are stuck/froze but the proof will be known soon....
I talked to the former owners son a couple weekends ago and he said that he thought his Dad had new rings installed as well as the bottom end checked at some point before he parked it. Thats the main reason why I'm not tearing it down further.

Got a short beach vacation coming up but I'll also have a few days I should be able to dedicate to this truck.
I couldn't help but take some cleaner to the dash, gauges and whole interior and the results just motivated me more. Even got the pop-up ventilation intake working. Looked like someone had used gasket sealer to seal it down or there was an orange gasket to help it seal when closed......

Dave

Stay with it. You will be happy with the end results

If your going to use an electric fuel pump make sure it doesn't have to much pressure. You may need to get a pressure regulator.

Update.
With the help of a couple stout helpers we got the head and head gasket properly sitting back on the block and I got it torqued down last night. To ease reassembly I mounted the manifolds before we hefted the head back on the block. Let me say that that is one heavy load, especially with all the body still together
I torqued in 3 steps, wrist tight, 70 lbs, 80 lbs, all in the order spec'd in the manual.

While reassembling the valve train I found 2 thin spacer/shims, one from each half, that I can't determine where they go. They are oddly shaped and appear to "fit" in shape and appearance with either the top or bottom of the 6 "towers" that bolts the valve train to the head. Theres only 2 so I'm thinking they may go on the 2 towers that the tall valve cover studs run through and if so, are they spacers for the bottom or top?

I also found where one of the push rods must have been rubbing on the oil line that feeds up to the valve train. It's not too bad but I'm thinking of ordering a replacement. I understand that this oil line is a strange assembly that runs from one side of the engine to the other through the water jacket and can't be repaired and must be replaced. Correct?
In any case I only loosened the 2 small fittings when I pulled the head and didn't break loose the large fitting on the block so I might be OK reusing this, I guess I'll be finding out soon.

Dave

To quote Baron Von Frankenstein, It's alive!
1st start in 44 yrs.
Theres planty still to do but it felt good to finally hear it under power.
Dave

Congratulations

oldbluetruck, how right you are.

don stocker, the elec fuel pump I'm useing is from another project, it makes between 1.5 & 4 psi.

tclederman, thanks

The final tightning on that rocker oil supply line did the trick and it hasn't leaked in over 24 hrs so I wrestled w/getting the side pan back on. Let me just say it fought me the whole way. For such a large engine bay it's surprisingly tight in there. Had to tap out 2 of the stovebolt threads in the head and clean up the threads on the 2 bolts to get them back in.
Even the valve cover gasket needed alittle mod as I cut off the 2 bolt hole "ears" on the carb side to get it to fit in the cover. Looks like the gasket will fit a 235 too.

Will be hooking up the new choke and throttle cable to the carb as I move along. I was able to get the idle working better on later startups and want to try starting from the cab.
Both cables were broke and dangleing. The choke cable is easy to figure out but I haven't figured out the throttle cable connection to the carb yet.
Anyone have a pic and/or some knowledgw on that they'd like to share?

And still need to troubleshoot the chargeing system, fuel delivery and brake systems.
My Mrs thought the hard part was done, I told hwer it was just begining
Dave

...throttle pic...

...throttle pic...

DadS50, thanks for the excellent pics. That almost looks too simple & logical

I have another question regarding the dist.
I disoovered it was stuck in it's full vaccum advance position so I pulled and cleaned it up and got the vaccum advance linkage freed up. I now get maybe 1/2" - 3/4" of rotation with it bolted back in. In tests both out and in the engine it doesn't seem to return to it's non-advanced state fully when I manually turn it and release it. It appears that the return spring is integral to the vaccum advance can. Is there supposed to be an additional external return spring or is the internal spring in the vaccum can it?

RTFM, OK I get it
Found enough web info to determine that the spring in the vaccum can is in fact all there is to return the dist back to the non advanced state.
I've determined that I'll need to replace both the vaccum can and the line (if the double flair doesn't seal).
Also the starter crapped out.
Picking up the brand new exhaust pipe and rebuilt starter today. Hope to restart & fine tune tonight.
Dave

Bolted on the new starter, exhaust pipe, choke & throttle controls and excited the generator.
With the external electric fuel pump she starts, idles and runs with me sitting in the cab and I can now ;isten and hear the engine running. I'm happy to report that the valves quiet down once warmed up, she never got over 180 degrees, she charges and with it jacked up I went through all the gears including reverse and every gear engaged, up and down shifted.

I timed it @ 600 rpm and got it to idle pretty smooth but she's very cold natured and rough idles while warming up.
At 1st the idle mixture screw didn't have much effect on idle but once it warmed up it did and I set it for the smoothest idle @ 600 rpm. It misses etc when cold. I rebuilt the Rochestor 1bbl but it still could have some restrictions in the passages etc. I hear the Carter carb is a better choice, may put one on my future purchase list.

I'm still trying to cipher out what the hand throttle control is really good for. I connected it just like Dad50 pics but it doesn't stay where I set it. I twisted it thinking it would lock and it didn't. I find it easier to just use my left foot to control the gas pedal when starting than trying to use the hand throttle control.....

I've also verified that the vaccum advaance can is bad and I can't get a good seal w/the vaccum line even w/a new double flair so they are next on the order list.

Going through the brakes and also pulling the gas tank and getting it dipped and sealed are next on the service list.
Who knows it may get some road time before the summers gone.

The engine has surprised me. It doesn't smoke and theres no bad noises comeing out of the bottom end (at least not yet) and she'll start without any starting aides on 6v, just choke and 1 good pump of the gas .
My Mrs doesn't fully understand how elated this is
Since I've got her running now and I'm going to start non engine related tasks on the truck, I'll go on ahead and end anymore updates to this thread.
Many thanks to those whose advise has helped me get this venerable old powerplant running again.

Dave

I don't guess rough running at cold idle could be caused by the heatriser valve on the exhaust manifold not working??

John