The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop URGENT rebuild question

hey all,
i'm rebuilding my grandpas old 1958 235 and i've run into a couple of issues. This being my first full engine build im taking my time and making sure everything is done right the first time. BUT i've run into 2 issues, please help me out and let me know what you think:

1. put oil pan on (used plenty of silicone on the gasket to get a tight seal) and after doing so i realized i forgot two bolts that go from the inside of the first main cap into the timing cover! i was so [censored]...anyways, is it significant to bolt these in from the inside-out into the timing cover or can i just put them in from the outside-in?!

2. somehow i found a minute nick in 5th piston journal (YES I WAS USING BOLT BOOTS) which formed a small line around the bearing shell. called the machine shop and asked them what i should do, they said buff it out with some high grade sandpaper and plenty of oil, take your time and just polish enough until the edge is off the journal. so i used some 400 grit wetsand paper and buffed it out until i could run my finger across it smoothly. My neighbor said i should have sanded the bearings a little too...what do you think?!
i feel really discouraged and was really trying to be as careful as possible during the whole build...but still i've come across these two issues. I guess the main point is, should i take my oil pan back off to fix these issue or am i OK?

thank you for your help!

Hy gbuck, welcome, I'm sorry you're having trouble with your engine build. I'm afraid the oil pan must come back off one way or the other. Some people reverse the direction of those timing cover bolts, but that involves tapping the front main bearing cap to 3/8" coarse I believe, and drilling out the timing cover for a 3/8" bolt to go through the holes. Or you can just put it back stock either way the oil pan must come off. If you already have the oil pan on then you have crushed any lumps/bumps that were in #5s bearing material in to the bearing material when you assembled and torqued the rod cap into place. Have you turned the engine over since you assembled everything? You could pull #5s rod cap off and see if there is a piece that could be removed from the bearing surface, or just leave it if the engine turns over easily. The main concern is if a lump or burr on the bearing breaks off and starts rolling around the journal it could ruin that bearing in short order. That bearing will always be weaker than the rest because part of its bearing surface has already been damaged, so it's up to you how you want to proceed, hope that helps.

I have seen on these forums that some guys drill the cover and tap the cap so that bolts can be inserted from outside the engine. That said I have not done this myself so perhaps another bolter will jump in with specifics. Be patient as I know you'll get plenty of responses.

thanks you guys for the quick responses. I will take the pan off later today or tomorrow, its just a pain in the [censored] and ill need a new gasket etc. As far as for the #5 piston bearings, i cleaned them thoroughly before putting them back on, i don't think there could be any metal shavings in there after that even though i didnt buff the bearings with sandpaper. It really makes me nervous though and discouraged, do you guys think itll be in good shape for at least 15-20 years before another rebuild?
As for the bolt, i think its critical to have them go from the inside-out into the timing cover hence they need to be torqued to the cap (i think it provides some sort of extra stability).

and i have turned the motor over it seems to turn as smooth as it should.

When you put things back together maybe want to re think using silicone. If I was doing it I would only use a dab where the end gaskets meet the side gaskets.

The reason for the two timing cover bolts coming in from the pan side dates back to when people had to adjust the main bearing clearance with shims. It was easier to get the front main cap off if the lower timing cover bolts were removed that way. Now it's seldom, if ever that the main cap comes off except during a full overhaul. Either way, the bolts don't get removed very often. Since the timing is done with gears instead of a chain, there's no reason to make the timing cover easier to remove. Just leave it like it was designed, with the bolts from the inside.

A little silicone seal goes a long way- - - -don't overdo it! Maybe a 1/16" wide bead right down the center of the gasket is OK, if you use it at all. I don't, except for a dab at the corners where the end gasket meets the side pieces. Check that rod bearing for imbedded steel- - - -a shallow gouge in the soft bearing material won't be much of a problem, but a loose piece of hard stuff will cause major grief!
Jerry

ok, you guys have great feedback. keep it coming.
I think i feel ok about the bearing now that hotrod commented. I know i wiped it very clean, the only thing i can think that would happen is if some metal came off the bearing itself. Ill inspect it when i take the oil pan off.

I tapped the holes in mine and I am very glad I did, it is very easy, and has saved my bacon twice so far. I would not even consider building an engine without tapping the holes. When I first found out I had to drop the pan, I was absolutely livid. Now that I know the reasoning behind it, it kind of makes sense. But I don't have shims, so it would be even more stupid for me to NOT tap the holes. I don't really know where you would put shims, the main bores in the block are held to a plus or minus .0005" tolerance, as well as the crankshaft. The only thing I can figure is they made the bearings with a whole lot of eccentricity back when to facilitate the egg shaped hole you would end up with if you put shims under the main caps to to enable you to adust things. They seemed to like to make every thing so you had to adjust it back then. Either that or they hadn't quite figured the precision part of the precision insert bearings. Either way when I ordered bearings from Egge, anything after '47(?) doesn't come with shims. But that didn't stop the machinist who was butchering my engine from ordering a set of shims, which turned out to be 1(one) shim of about .013" thick for each bearing. Can't figure what type of adjustment could be done with those...I also vote no on the silicone. I don't use sealers at all on most things, usually anti seize. But the sheet metal on these engines tends to leak a lot if you don't. I used some sort of gasket shellac, permatex or something I don't recall exactly. Silicone has its place, but inside your engine isn't one of them.

its interesting to hear pros and cons about whether to put the bolts on the inside of the timing cover or outside, i guess my final concern is does it play a role in the strength of the main cap?
the "silicon" is permatex right-stuff.

Hy gbuck, "silicon" is a mineral and hard as the dickens, "silicone" is soft sticky gouey stuff that becomes a glue like substance when it cures (and I didn't know it was sick), Happy Thanksgiving.

i think you know what i meant. my bad for the typo.

The only purpose for the small bolts in the main cap is to hold the bottom of the timing cover on. They have nothing whatsoever to do with the main bearing fit or strength. Getting to those two bolts from the front side was VERY difficult on some engines due to the position of the front motor mount. Putting them through from inside the oil pan was simply a timesaver when the front main bearing cap needed to be removed. Good engineering, really!

Silicone sealer has a habit of getting into places it doesn't belong, like the oil pump pickup strainer, the oil pump relief valve, crankshaft oil passages, etc. if it squeezes out into the inside of the pan. If you absolutely insist on using a sealer on the pan gasket, get a can of Permatex Super 300 brush-on liquid sealer. It's a lot less likely to get into places it doesn't need to be. Huge gobs of sealer are not a substitute for straight sheet metal and clean, properly tightened parts.
Jerry

took the pan off today, the gasket stayed in place fairly well except a small bit came off of the pan, but i think its salvageable with a LITTLE right-stuff.
rechecked the scratched bearings and the journal looks good, took the bearing shell and gave it a quick buff and cleaned thoroughly. It still makes me nervous but i think itll be ok.
no i just have to line up the flywheel mark at TDC and then the timing cover can go on properly.
thanks again for everyones help.

OK I gotta ask, how does the flywheel mark relate to the timing gear cover going back on?

if the cam and crank marks line up with the flywheel mark and the #1 piston is at TDC.......then im happy. So once the flywheel is on i dont need to reference the crank and cam marks anymore.

OK, just wondering.

Good luck trying to make it start- - - -when the cam/crank timing marks are lined up, the #6 cylinder is in the firing position on the camshaft with both valves closed on the compression stroke.
Jerry

wait wait wait wait wait! how can that be, exact top dead center (measured with dial indicator) lines up the marks perfectly, unless itll be different once i put the rockers on. Jerry, how would you recommend getting my timing mark on my flywheel lined up?

I was always taught when at first you don't succeed read the directions.

So locate the manual for your truck/engine and when you get stuck look it up.
I find it's much faster than waiting for answers like torques and other settings...

yeah get a book, that way you know it is right, if you have the #1 piston at TDC and the flywheel is on the pointer it, is right as far as cam timing, since the flywheel mark shows up TDC for exhaust as well as compression the trick comes when you try to set the ignition up 180 degrees out. THAT is something you need to get sorted out before you try and start your engine. You want the engine to start within 3 or 4 revolutions, whereupon once you achieve oil pressure you IMMEDIATELY commence your 20 minute cam break in period. Don't think you will get away with cranking, and cranking, recharge the battery, fiddle around with something or other, then try again. The odds are pretty good you will lose your cam if you do that. Go to several of the cam manufacturers websites and read their cam break in procedure. (they are all pretty much identical) and follow EVERY step. This is very important if you don't want to learn why it is very useful to have the bolts coming in from the outside. You have to follow the steps exactly, you cannot substitute well worded questions to the forum AFTER the fact. This cam thing apparently has come to light after the somewhat recent EPA mandate removing zinc and phosphorus (phospate?) from the oil. Phosphorus by the way is what you are after not the zinc. The zinc is part and parcel of ZDDP, the P portion of which is phosphorus. Also read an article by Bob Olree concerning this matter, he was (is?) the lubrication guru at GM, and is recognized as almost without peer in this field. Which is also where you will find the same information I have given you. By the way match marks on things you have to reassemble in a certain orientation work pretty well

i have the book, its kinda confusing. I am 90% positive i have it set up perfect now when at TDC: #1 piston all the way up, both valves closed but intake valve ABOUT to open, turning clockwise of course, crank and cam timing marks line up, and the flywheel ball is lined up with the bellhousing. i think that sounds pretty good to me...unless the exhaust is suppose to open after TDC but i've been told by several people now the intake is suppose to open. as far as lubrication, i have the cam and lifters lubed very nicely with some redline, and was highly reccommened by the machine shop to use John Deere break-in oil...i know kind of random but they said the stuff works great. Maybe it has higher phosphorus?

Hy gbuck, If you have number one piston all the way up and you say the intake valve is about to open, then you are at TDC on the exhaust stroke for number one cylinder, not the compression stroke, you need to turn the crankshaft one more revolution, hope that helps.

even turning it by hand counts against you in the cam break in department. (refer to the break-in procedures outlined by the aforementioned cam manufacturers) If you were able to see the cam after one revolution the lube is wiped off smooth. So keep it to a minimum. you wouldn't neccesarily need to start with the #1 cylinder to run the wires, I mean the distributor just goes in circles it will get there eventually. I don't really see why you couldn't set the timing off of #6 as well. You just have to be timing the one that is on compression. Also the rotor doesn't necessarily point to any particular post on the distributor as #1, it just needs to line up with one, call that #1 and go from there.