The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop New guy with 54 3100 w bad engine. Need advice

2 months ago bought 54 Chevy 3100 3/4 ton? Title is listed as 3100 3/4ton but I thought 3600 was 3/4 ton. Anyways its was restored couple years ago and was in good condition. I drove once a week for 2 months and engine started to knock 2 weeks ago. It knocked only when rpm was high. Drove around block yesterday and engine when crazy. I'm hearing loud knocking noise even in idle.
Got local mechanic to come out and check it out.
He told me its the rod and 235 had special bobble rod.
He told me I need to find new engine and recommended newer v8.
He quoted me around $3k ballpark to install reconditioned 350 v8 engine.
I live in small town 2 hrs away from Dallas.

Also I was notified by landlord that I can not work on my truck in the parkinglot. So I have to find shop to do all my work.

Need advice. What are my choices? find used 235? go for v8? Don't think I can find mechanic to rebuild 235 in this small town.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/byongjoon/truck.jpg

Find a new mechanic.
Or, maybe HrL will explain what a special bobble rod is?

What is the code on the metal plate on the cab, between the driver's door hinges?

What do you want in your truck? An original style engine or a V-8 engine?

Will the shop guarantee a final installed price of $3,000 (not "ball park price")?

What town do you live in?

What is a bobble rod? The old 216's and 235 were considered "babbit-pounders",since they relied on "spoons" attached to the crankshaft,for lubrication. The "newer" 235,261's,employed oil-pumps,ensuring better lubrication,resulting in longer engine life.there are plenty of rebuild kits available for the 235's. Try the links page right here on "Stovebolt".I'm NOT 100% sure on this,but I do believe that the 235 in the '54's were,in fact,equipped with an oil pump,so I don't think this "bobble rod" thing is a problem. If you're lucky,maybe all you'll need to do is drop the pan,check the pan for metal shavings. Check the rod bearings. The "bad" one(s) will have some play.Check crank for scoring, rub with emery-cloth. Wipe-down with CLEAN lint-free cloth,moistened with engine oil.Use a dial caliper for tolerance check. If crank passes tolerance test,install ALL new rod bearings per instructions,torque to spec's. Hope this helps.

Code H
I would like to drive it around on weekends and to load large items from homedepot or lowes.
$3k is not final price. He said it will depends on what more parts he needs during swap.
Wichita falls, TX

He seems he knows what hes talking about. He told me he's not familiar with dinosaur engine but told me sound is the rod.
He had 48 buick, 70s judge, 69 camaro and saw more classics cars go in and out from his shop.

It sounds like your not a gear head, and enjoy running around in your truck just the way it is. So why create a bunch of headaches. Have your engine redone, or find one in good running condition that you can have installed in your truck. Get your baby back on the road so you can enjoy it. JMO.

Brian

I have a '55 2nd-series 6500. mytruck is equipped with the origional 261 block,and a 235 head,according to the numbers. I paid $650.00,to have my head overhauled,due to stuck valves. THANKS to this site,a week after I had the head in the shop,I found that I needed hardened valves and seats installed. This mechanic worked on several hundred cars over the years as well.By the time I called,He already had the old valves ground,and had half of them installed. But if it wasn't for the experienced people on this site,this would have been easily over-looked,resulting in PROBLEMS!! I don't consider this engine a dinosaur,by any means. Mine runs like a top,with about 40# oil-pressure-hot. Not bad for a 57-Y.O. truck,with 97,000 showing!

Your mechanic probably meant "babbitt" rods. If your engine is a true 54, then you'll have conventional insert bearings. I can't really give you any real advise since it seems you don't have anywhere to work on your truck. I'm leaning toward a rebuilt 235 for your application. It's the quickest, and probably easiest.

A quick look at the wheels can help identify what style it is, if it's 8 lugs it's a 3/4ton, if it's 6 lugs it's a 1/2 ton. Most likely if what you say is true, it could have had a different title used to register it.

If you are looking to keep it looking stock, go with the 235, it's a good engine. Several of them are available in the Texas craigslist. Who knows, you might be able to get the engine owner to install it for a price.

Your mechanic is getting ready to get you in trouble. If it is as mentioned an 8 lug 3/4 ton, then it should be open driveshaft and not quite as big a deal to "transplant" a V8 into. If it is a 3100 half ton, it will have a torque tube driveshaft which means the swap would also include a different transmission, driveshaft, rear end, and leaf springs. I think your budd has good intentions but is trying to make your truck more into something he would like steering you more towards the street rod direction. A 54 engine should have insert style bearings and an oil pump. In the old days, they would rebuild those things in the "field" leaving the block in the engine bay. The right way is to pull it and do a good rebuild, or even find another known good engine of similar year. TX should be full of them.

I agree with some of the others; the cheapest, simplest, easiest is to repair/rebuild your engine or replace with another one of the same. A V8 conversion is a big deal, especially if it is a 3100 1/2-ton as it has a torque-tube rear axle and drive shaft and that will have to be replaced too...
Get another mechanic. Lots of guys claim to know all about old cars/trucks - but if your truck has a 54 235 then it doesn't have "bobble" or babbited rods.
Start reading: http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/shop/1954truck/index.html
Great looking truck. I think it looks like a 3/4-ton. Good luck with it.

OH, wetwilly, all Chevy 6-cylinders from the first ones in 1929 had an oil pump. They did have dippers on the rods and troughs and nozzles in the pan to lube the rod bearings. Those bearings were babbit cast into the big end of the rods. 1953 was the last year for that.

Thank you for replies.
Its 3/4 ton with 8 lugs but listed 3100. Should be 3600
I'm searching on craigslist for any 6s that will fit in my truck. Next week, I'll look for mechanic who can rebuild my 235.
Called around storage unit and all of them told me I cant work on the cars/trucks.

you might want to check your pm's at the top of the post.


In the meantime put an ad in the swap meet section, who know's what you will find. There s a seller from Minnesota that has one on there now.

dorky82,

As Frank50 posted, your truck does look like a 3/4 ton.

As posted above: "What is the code on the metal plate on the cab, between the driver's door hinges?" If that original vehicle serial number (ID) plate is there, it might help to identify the year and size of your truck.

The front emblem on the hood is not from 1954, but that could have easily been changed over the years.

Frank50 also nicely described the pressurized oil system used in all 216 engines, and in most 235 engines prior to 1954. In 1953, the Powerglide 235 engine was the only 235 with insert rod bearings and a higher pressure oil system. In 1953, the truck 235 still used babbetted rods.

All 1954 and later 235/261 engines had insert rod bearings and a higher pressure oil lubrication system.

Some people mistakenly (or cutely) call the 216/235 babbetted-rod lubrication system a "splash oil" lubrication system. That is an incorrect use of the term "splash oil", which was a more primitive, earier-engine lubrication system.

"Splash" is a misleading term, and the Chevrolet literature took great pains to distinguish their system, in which oil pressure from the pump is accurately directed into the path of the rod cap, from the older method, in which a scoop or dipper attached to the rod cap descends below the pan's oil level at BDC.
With the Chevrolet method, at low speed, the pump continuously fills small troughs positioned across the swept paths of the rod caps (more positive than the oil level).
At high engine speed, the oil is still under pressure as it enters the rod bearing.

I would find a different mechanic. To put a V8 in, he would have to change a few things including the steering column. If you can afford it, having your 235 rebuilt is much better than putting in a used one.

Hardened valve seats: There are many opinions on this. Personally I wouldn't spend the money.

RUN- - - -do not walk away fron that wrench jockey! He's about to get deep into your pocket with a vacuum cleaner, and ruin a nice truck in the process! His price is far too low for a quality V-8 conversion, and if he comes anywhere close to his estimate, you'll end up with a cobbled-up mess that might be impossible to straighten out. He's already admitted he has no experience with older engines, so that speaks volumes about his general knowledge.

Depending on how badly the crankshaft is damaged from the knocking rod, someone who knows his way around your engine can rebuild it properly in the $1,500.00-$3,000.00 range, parts and labor. In the event it does not need to be removed from the truck and totally reworked, a ring and rod bearing job, plus a valve regrind will be closer to the $750-$1,000 range, but don't count on that happening. By the time an engine starts knocking, it's probably beyond the point of a successful in-the-frame rebuild.

Bottom line- - - -find a competent shop with people capable of giving you an accurate estimate, and stay far away from Mr. Badwrench!
Jerry

Dorky82,
As with the others, I'd also look for another mechanic. It never hurts to get more quotes. Depending on where in TX you are located, maybe another Stovebolter who lives nearby can give you a name or two.

Hopefully some time soon, you can rent a house or something behind one to live so you can have fun wrenching on your truck yourself.

PM sent to you.

there isn't a chance that fella will be able to give you a V-8 swap for $3000, that combined with the "bobble rod" statement, convinces me the man has no idea whatsoever what he is talking about. RUN, DON'T WALK away from this person. If it is rod bearings, you might be able to remove a shim or two if the journal isn't too bad. I just did a 216, and I had an absolutely horrid time trying to find someone to do the machine work. Even the pretty much acknowledged best shop in town, messed up the head which caused three of the exhaust valves to stick, and took out the cam along with it after about 300 miles. Like the other fella said if it truly is a 54 engine, it will be full pressure to the rods with insert bearings, I'm not certain of the shims though...

Thank you all.
Went to local auto part store(not autozone, advanced auto, etc) good old country auto part store. Talked with couple of people and found the guy that will look at my truck.
They think it could be loose main or rod bearing and also oil pump.
Going to get this guy to open it up and check it out. Plan to rebuild it myself in the future if he ask for too much money.
I'm planning to stay with 235.
It sure is fun to drive without power steering.

I replaced mine with a 261 I found through a dealer Parts Counter in San Diego. It was complete, a First series '55 and it was a little bit of work BUT it fit and it did have a lot more power. Later I went to multiple carburetion and sent the 848 head up to the Sissell's shop in West Covina. Then I added a cam kit and an HEI and it is still going strong after 18 years. I've never been disappointed and the money I saved took me and the better half to Australia for a month the following year.
Normbc9

Uploaded video.
Mechanic told me He wont know until he get inside of engine.
He told me he has spare 235 and quoted me $900 for labor and engine. Also he said he will fix brake problem I had.

So far my engine is making
knocking noise
exhaust leak(manifold and head)
oil pan leak
blown headgasket(coolant leak)

$900 is not a bad price for a good 235 installed. After listening to your video, can you pull the valve cover off and take another video? I wonder if a pushrod is off or bent? Easy and $0 cost to tell.

Took off valve cover and side cover off. Everything moved freely. Also good oil flow.

That sound is not a rod bearing knock in my opinion and definitely not a main. Something is thrashing around alright but it appears to be running on all cylinders.

I'm sure others will add their input. I don't think it's a rod or main bearing either. Are you still getting good oil pressure?

My gauges are not connected. How do I check oil pressure?
I'm seeing oil pouring out from the center oil tube.

That's a nasty noise

Your gauges are not connected ??????? and you've been driving it like that?

How did you imaging you were going to monitor the engine operation?

It's great that you have posted a video, but , The video is crap. Please post another one where you are steady on each part of the valve train for much longer. stay steady so we can watch the movements and time the knocking to what we see. I have looked at your video 20 times just trying to time the knock to the movement. I want to look at all the pushrods operating, slowly, and the valve springs operating, slowly.

Can you check the valve clearance ? even if you just slip a 010" feeler under the rocker arms while it is running will help you isolate the noise to one or more valves/cylinders.

If you can do this , let us know where it goes quiet , or not.

Is the fan, generator fan , fan belt clear of everything thru full engine rotation?

Pull the spark plug wires out of the distributor cap one at a time and see if the noise changes when a particular cylinder is not firing. That one sounds a lot like a broken piston skirt letting the piston slap the cylinder wall as a spark plug fires. Killing the ignition on a broken piston will seriously diminish the noise, or turn it into a double-knock sometimes. Does the noise change as the engine is revved up just a little? You really need to be monitoring oil pressure, even if it's just a gauge connected to the side of the block under the hood. The oil pressure port is a 1/8" pipe threaded port about 2/3 of the way toward the back of the block on the driver's side, about 4 inches above the oil pan rail. If a gauge is not connected, it might have a line pinched off or have a plug in the hole.
Jerry

Bought it like this 2 month ago and drove about 30 miles.
Brake is spongy so I was in process of fixing it.

Noise did not change when I pulled each wire.

I was recording video and one of my neighbor came out to check out.
He told me it sounds like my timing is off 180 degrees.
Going to check shop manual to see if I connected all wires in correct location when I changed sparkplugs last month and check distributor cap tomorrow.

I might end up replacing this engine for good 235 and use my engine to study and spare parts.

An engine will not run at all with the timing 180 out. The normal firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4. Yours sounds right- - - -no stumble or miss, just a very loud mechanical noise. To check the firing order, pull the #1 spark plug, put your thumb over the plug hole, and have someone tap the starter a little at a time until you feel a puff of compression. Pull the distributor cap and see which cap terminal the rotor points toward. That's #1. Follow the wires in a clockwise direction from the top, and make sure they fit the firing order above. It makes no difference what cap position is the #1 wire, as long as the wire aligns with the rotor with the #1 cylinder on compression.

Edit: What's the chance something has fallen down the carburetor and gotten imbedded in the top of a piston? Did anything fall into a spark plug hole while you were changing plugs, maybe? That sounds like something is hitting the cylinder head every time one of the pistons comes to the top, or there's a VERY bad rod knock. Try taking all the plugs out and turning the engine by hand to see if there's a spot where things get hard to turn. Did the noise begin immediately after the plug change, or was it there before you started tinkering with the engine?

BTW, that bent fan is a disaster waiting to happen. It would be a very good idea to change it.
Jerry

Jerry , if you study the crap videos it looks like the noise frequency is the fan hitting the bottom pulley , perhaps because it's loose??

The clack clack noise level has not changed between videos , just some valve lash noise added in the 2nd vid.

What do you think.

ps, it could be a broken piston , very hard to tell , but the noise does sound external , not internal to me.
Regards

There's a simple way to eliminate external noises- - - -just run it with the fan belt removed. It will run for a couple of minutes without the water pump turning before it overheats.
Jerry

I would agree that the noise sounds external to the engine. It does seem to be in time with one of the fan blades. Should be easy to diagnose that. Hope that is the problem.

Kurt

Marvel Mystery Oil is used to loosen up deposits and clean the gunk out of the nitty gritty places yes?

So things that were tight may now be a skosh looser because of gunk loosening up and so my guess is it's an oil return line loosened up by MMO and being hit by the crank as #3 spins past.

Or maybe that's just because that was where my mystery knock ended up coming from
I found the key to using video is using the editing software to identify on the sound track where the knock happens and then compare engine component positions in those frames...

"Oil return line"? How about the oil pressure line from the oil pump to the block? That's a definite possibility, but the first thing to do is remove the fan belt and figure out if the noise is internal or external. One that loud is bound to leave a shiny spot on the fan and whatever it's hitting (probably the crankshaft pulley) if the noise isn't coming from inside the engine. Once the belt is removed, just spinning the fan should pinpoint the problem if it's external.
Jerry

My bad HL... that's the one. I guess more coffee is in my immediate future

I agree I'd do everything I could to discount that option before going there. What a pain (he said after a dozen trips there)

Another possibility is a deteriorated harmonic balancer. That's a 2-piece unit with rubber dampers built in. If they get worn to the point of allowing metal-to-metal contact, a hammering noise can be the result, although it would probably be a lot higher frequency. A Buick 3800 V-6 was prone to that type of failure on a pretty regular basis. I've never seen that on a stovebolt engine, but there's a first time for everything!
Jerry