The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Yeehaw! Engine in my '52 has no sign of wear

So, history is I purchased very original and intact '52 from local farm that had been sitting unused for MANY years. So far, during disassembly it has become evident that the truck showed very little sign of heavy wear and tear (other than body and interior from sitting out in weather for decades. Anyway, I started to disassemble the engine last night. I was surprised when I pulled the lifters that the machining marks (circular pattern) was still evident on bottom of lifters with zero apparant wear. Looking at cam lobes told the same story. Next, the head came off only to reveal zero wear ridge on cylinder walls and honing marks still slight visiable in places. No cylinder wall pitting from rust. Pistons do NOT have markings suggesting oversize. Rolled engien over and pulled pan. Other than the insect debris from sitting unused for decades, the bottom end looked spotless. Honing marks more visiable, shiney rod journals (assumed from babbit bearing).

Next, timing cover comes off, cam out, pistons and crank come out so I can start measuring things. But, it seems the engine just needs a good cleaning, conversion to bearing shells, and reassembly. I am stocked. Engine serial number suggests original (or at least time period correct) 216.

In the FWIW department, the seller purchased truck from the local county and it was obvious that the truck was used for road repairs. The seller only used the truck on his very small farm. It is possible the engine only experienced very low stresses and was maintained very well as counties might tend to do.

And, I started the engine before pulling it out of the truck and it purred like a kitten.

Hey, great news! congrats. Wish mine had been like that.

But, why not just put it back together and keep on trucking? There is no reason to convert to bearing shells if you don't need new bearings. Drive it a 100,000 miles, and then convert. Babbited bearings are very robust, plus they are adjustable. Just my opinion, of course.

Kurt

First rule of the shade tree Mechanic: If it works, don't #^#*$# with it!

great find!!! wish i could be that lucky.

I work for the county, I have to call bull on the taking care of their equipment, it just ain't so.

I have to #^#^$# with it because it is an outwardly rusted mess and you would not believe the amount of trash (from rodents and insects) that are inside the engine. Also, the water passages are mostly plugged with rust scale because the engine was drained of coolant and left that way for probably decades. The block must be thourough cleaned and the only way to do that is complete disassembly. I will also installed hardened valve seats and possibly shave .125" off of head (requires recessing valve seats, etc) to raise compression on the anemic 216. Somebody has worked on the engine in the past and it may not be the original engine as the rocker arm oil feed tubing is copper and it is my understanding that the lines were steel originally.

Maybe in the 50's, counties did a better job at maintenance than they do today.

Nice you have the machines to do that.

IMHO you really don't need the hardened valve seats. I would also stay with the babbit rods, why spend money you don't have to. Freshen it, purdy it up, then flog it like a rented mule!

I wish I had the machines to do the machining work. What i meant was that I will have a local machine shop do the work.

I will probably get around to pulling the crank and pistons this weekend. Once I see condition of Babbitt I might decide to leave in place. But for $200, I think I like the piece of mind of switching to bearing shells. we'll see.

The only thing the insert bearings have going for them is that if you really need new bearings, they are cheaper, and easier to put in. Otherwise the babbit type rod is the better bearing, in my experience. The other thing babbit has going for it these days, is that if you really need to turn your crank, you only have it turned the minimal amount to clean it up. Then have your rods made to fit the crank at Paul's Rod and Bearing. This will preserve the original material of the crank.

Give 'em a call and talk to Russ. He will give you the straight story. I hope you have kept up with the shims.

Kurt

"But for $200, I think I like the piece of mind of switching to bearing shells. we'll see."

I just went thru this ordeal with 2 engines trying to decide which one would be the best candidate to expend work on. Mine are 235's of 51-52' vintage, but the big end rod bores are similar to your 216. In my various spare-parts motors I have found both converted rod insert shells, and original rods w/direct babbitt.

I recently ran the cost estimates and I could not find the cost of polishing , (or grinding) a crankshaft, and boring new big ends of the piston rods, checking for straightness, ect. anywhere near a cheap $200 for an insert conversion! Shell inserts alone were expensive. Then there is the possibility of needing new pistons and new rings and new ???

As others have said, I would try and keep the direct babbitted rods if they can match your crank dimensions easy by de-shimming. There is no more or less of a babbitt thickness on the shell inserts. De-shimming will cheaply take up some slop in an old engine.

I would recommend first plasti-gauging those rod and crank bearings to give you a better idea of the true conditions of the bearing clearances.

Wishing you best of luck!

10-4, first order of businesss will be to pull caps and see what I got. If I can remove shims (assuming there are any left) to get the clearances I need then I will do so. But, if the crank needs turning due to trash in oil then I will go with inserts. I did discover that cam was in great shape, but cam bearings are horrible, gouges, nicks, you name it. I am thinking some put in a new cam and lifters and left the old bearings in place. The cam gear is all aluminum, so seemingly a replacement.

I don't know where you can get rods converted for $200. I bought a set of rods from someone that had been machined for inserts for $100, (boy did I score big on that one) they were all within 1 gram of each other except for one that was 40 grams off. It had a completely different casting number. However I had 1 rod of that number in a box of parts, so I took it to a local machine shop that had a very good reputation, (as it turns out it was the FATHER that had the reputation, not the son who is running the place into the ground.) Where it was promptly ruined by grinding the sides off for whatever reason, so not only was I out the only rod that matched the ones I had, he only charged me $50 for the privelege. So I sent the 4 best rods I had to Egge to get machined at $40 a shot to try and match weight. I had new bolts for the rods, that after they were installed I had to take the rods to the machine shop one more time to get the holes round again. Which only cost $140 more. (lesson learned: install the bolts you are actually going use in the rods BEFORE having them machined for inserts, it does make a difference) Not to mention the 2 or 3 months in time it cost me. So although I think I am happy with the end result (I really don't know as it still isn't running. The exhaust valves seized up and ruined my cam as well, and now my cam is lost somewhere between here and arizona) it wasn't easy, or cheap. (considerably more than $200) Hopefully anyone can learn from my experience, which is Pretty much there won't be a machine shop except for Egge, or Kanter that will have the slightest clue as to what to do with your rods, and if you do, you won't find anyone to do it cheaper. And if anyone has even slightly followed the story of my engine, I am starting to think the almighty is trying to give me a hint, I have been sent through the wringer for about 3 years now...And it is still sitting in pieces.

"I did discover that cam was in great shape, but cam bearings are horrible, gouges, nicks, you name it"

Parts have really gotten expensive on those engines! But if you only need stock cam bearings, well they are still relatively cheap ($35-$45)---but installation is tricky because of the odd tool (longer than a small block).

My plight is very similar to yours , one of my spare motors was a fresher rebuild but had been sitting a long time (20 years). This left me replacing rings and cleaning & unsticking stuff. I was able to successfully powerwash all the water passages of rust and crud out with the engine head off, casting plugs out, and engine on a stand in driveway. I thus avoided a trip to hot-tank. Surprised me at how well it worked!

Since you may only be facing a RE-Freshing versus a re-build, may I offer some tips based on what I have just gone thru?
#1-take hundreds of organized detailed pictures. The littlest detail will really help latter.
#2-- double-check if your pistons are stock cast alloy iron, or newer replacement aluminum (makes a difference in cylinder bores)
#3---all the lower end parts need to be marked as per their relation to the cam AND keep all nuts, bolts , tappets, push rods, EVERYTHING labeled and stored to put them back in the exact position of the places they were removed from. (white typewriter correction fluid works great, stamping is OK but hard to do, and last resort is permanent marker cause oils will wash it away --but it is good for bearings ). Screws and bolts under and around the timing cover are weird sizes and positions so note them well or just put them right back where they belong.
#4---watch those little dippers on the rods and shape of oil pan. Most machine shops will not re-set them and will give you the old "I didn't disturb them so I just put them back on".
They are as fragile as glass and can get easily distorted when you move the rods (and pan) around in your shop over time.
#5--- Zip-lock freezer and sandwich baggies are your best friends when it comes to storing parts. Label the bags well, use lots of them.
#6---I would re-think milling the heads any. Your 216 should really perk up with some clean parts (and maybe a better exhaust). Milling heads and recessing valves is usually not a good pay-back unless the head was warped real bad to begin with. Hardened valve seats may not be necessary for you (depends on your payloads and how fresh your valves are now) but they do have a good pay-back when (if) you sell the truck (buyers seem to like them).

The cost of new gasket kits,seals, some new cam bearings,etc etc will shock you enough to consider refreshing a 216 to near stock.
{Also: Kohnke Rebabbitting Service 60615 330th Avenue Clare, IA 50524 .... I think has a good reputation, lots of experience, and willing to talk about your bearings. Previously mentioned Paul's Rod And Bearings is good too!}

Oh, #7 --- I've been finding out it's a hell of a lot easier to take those engines apart than to put them back together!

Thanks for the tips. I am fairly confident that can get the engine back together without photos or notes (I have completed my fair share of frame off vehicle restorations and this truck is about as easy as it gets if not a bit unusual. I definately either stamp or mark any parts that needs to go back in the original location or orientation.

Good point on cam bearings, I will be sure to ask the machine shop a ton of questions before I let do any work if needed.

And yes, I motive the timing cover screws, long where they screw into block an short where only screw into the engine mount plate. The pistons are cast iron.

Oh, I love all the advice and comments…definately gives me things to consider. Keep 'em coming!

"I will be sure to ask the machine shop a ton of questions before I let do any work if needed"

I honestly , and in no way mean to be argumentative, but if all you really need is a "cleaned up" and double-checked engine why go to a machine shop?
I have not been to a machine shop that knows those 216's better than many of these folks on this site!
My experience is that today's machine shops can be great places to get engine work done on a motor, and not so great places to ask specific questions about your old antique 216 motor. It's not any of their fault cause it's hard for them to know all the little details. I prefer to know all the numbers and details first, then let them tell me about how they will do the work.

I meant I would ask questions to gauge there ability to do the work properly. If the answers are questionable, I will run for the door.

Hope you have good luck in your area with the machine shops .

The idea of heavy milling of your head while still using stock cast iron pistons is not thought to be a preferred method for performance. The cast iron pistons of 52' were not known to like higher compression ratios due to the way they heat-up on their heads (versus aluminum), and they do weigh a bit more on the rotating mass.
Might want to refer that question to some of the racers here?

I looked up the cost of new aluminum pistons. At about $65/ea, it probably makes sense to swith them out. I like the idea of lighter mass trying very hard to change directions quickly. However, I am assuming the pistons will retain the very anemic compression ratio of 6.5:1. Milling the head might be the easiest solution to upping the compression ratio to 7.5:1 and gaining a few horsepower. The 216 seems to need all the help it can get. I will be converting to 12 volt electrical, so turning over the engine with higher compression should not be a problem.

Earlier in this thread, the prevailing wisdom was well put forth by Kurt_51carryall : "But, why not just put it back together and keep on trucking?"

New aluminum pistons will likely need to be matched to each cylinder bore, and that may mean re-boring, then new rings, then new wrist pins, then definitely rod bearing inserts, then ... = domino effect of mucho $$$$$$.

I haven't ever thought of a tight 216 as anemic. Most guys thinking that 216 was pitiful are driving a worn out engine: and any worn out engine is pitiful. In an empty payload 3000 series Chevy truck of 52' vintage a fresher 216 can be perky enough with the simple standard trick of adding better exhaust. {not super but adequate)

You kind of negate the Good Luck you had finding a lesser molested 216 when you try and pump up the compression ratio and swap internal parts. I would install new cam bearings (that's cheap and probably needed $45). New gasket set (w/rope seal) that will help future leaks for about $100 set, see if it needs any misc parts (a tappet, a lifter, a this or that) ---- and simply run it stock with maybe a creative fiddling with new carbs and split exhaust (if your itching to spend some dough).

IMHO -- Over Hi-Po'ing a good stock tight 216 motor is an exercise in blowing money away. If it already needs new massive block and valve work, then the cost can be justified.

Why not get a xtra junker 235 or 261 and hop it up? Or an extra junker 216?
You got a good motor, seems a shame to walk the endless path of chasing higher rpms with it. The rest of the truck (tires, brakes, etc) can always use money thrown at it?Just my opinion, based on the already high cost I'm paying to get a 51' 2 ton truck running! (and having several engines torn down waiting for money).
In the end it's your truck, and thus the Best of Luck To You in whatever path you take!