The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Engine swap is a 350 Ok ? Reenforcement needed?

The details on me and the truck are below... I want to swap a 6 cylinder (not original) motor with a 350 into a 1942 panel truck . I assume we'll need to reenforce the frame? Are there any photos or suggestions- I'm assign this has been done a lot. Same question for installing shocks into the rear and a tow hitch.

Other questions below for anyone with the knowledge and a little time to chime in and help me get this project started on its best feet.

Here's the deal :

I'm just getting started on my research for getting a half ton '42 chevy panel truck back on the road for use as a daily driver. I also need it to occasonally haul my travel trailer a 22 foot vintage Curtis wright. So it needs some power, though only necessary for driving and towing, I'm not looking for crazy awesome power. Also I need it asap as I have no wheels right now, luckily I live in San fran so I can often do without.That's the basics here are some more details

The truck as it stands:
Seats replaced with bucket seat from 70's or 80's sports car
It has a running 1970's Mustang engine in it- master cylinder is bad. Presumalby the rear from the Mustang. This will be remeoved and sold for cash to put back in.
It has original leaf springs on the rear but not the accompanying original suspension. No shocks were ever added and the leaf springs have started to shift sideways slightly. We plan to fabricate some brackets or mounts to add in shocks and perhaps a package to stiffen/distribute the rear as it will be used as a tow vehicle. Obviously we'll be straightening the springs and getting them properly bolted in.
We also plan to replace or stiffen up the front end for better handling.

The Plan:
To outwardly keep the truck as original looking as possible, while giving me the power and handling for a daily driver:
Stiffen up the front end for better handling.
Replace engine with a 350 or like and adding support brackets for additional wieght- assuming it needs that
Replace auto transmission and rear end
Add shocks to rear
fabricate a mounting to the frame for a tow hitch to pull trailer
install disk brakes all around
power steering
tilt steering (for long drives this will be needed especially)
install a heat/AC/Defrost unit

Suggestions thus far:

A- a new 350 with auto trans perhaps an R4 tranny- giving me an overdrive and achieving better mileage while towing. With this it has been also suggested to me that a 4.11 or some such lower geared rear ratio would be better. The best way to do this I am told is to keep it simple without a computer. I assume while this would be the most expensive of my options but it would yeild the most reliable towing vehicle and have the capability to suit my needs. I am told fuel injected is more $ but better for fuel consumpiton, I assume the increase in cost might even pay for itself over some years.

Replace steering wheel with a 69-71 tilt/telscoping steering wheel or some new similar unit.

B- get an 350 engine and trans from a 1968, 69,70, 71 or maybe 72 or 73 ruck chevy truck and presuameably the rear end as it will have the power I need and be far cheaper. The problem I guess is locating one and then getting something that may not have the longevity of a new engine as well as needing more maintenance and replaced/rebuilt sooner.

If anyone has photos of successful mounts for under a panel or pickup, engine reenforments for adding the 350 or mounts for rear shocks or a tow hitch or info on such , I would love to see

photos can be snet to me directly at [email protected]

My background :

I'm an artist, I wont be doing these alterations to the truck as I dont have that knowledge myslef. (obviously)
I will be assisting to help save time and money. My mechanic is willing to do whatever I want but wants me to let him know in what direction we need to go, and do some of the initial research that he doesn't really have the time for right now. We both want to do this right the first time,

We plan to use Summit Racing for new parts as he likes their dealings and ample return policy.

Any and all feedback is most appreciated

Cheers
frockman

I would die to have a panel, and you are ruining one...its almost enough to make me cry. What ever the case I'm not so sure a 350 would actually have the guts to haul a trailer that size.

The smart move is to get a newer frame with running gear, with all suspension you want. And do all the cutting etc on the new frame and its components, fit the old panel body to it, and always cut and modify the new frame to fit, not the body. Save the other parts, and when your tired of it and ready to get rid of it. Then the stock stuff will be there for a guy like me and brokenhead. I see lots of modded stuff that no one seems to want. Like a close neighbor that has a pickup, he modded, can't sell it. Now if he did a super good factory stock resto on it, I would buy it for what hes asking for it now. Personally factory stock is worth way more than the, "I wanted something different than other people have" things. The real different is a top knotch factory restoration, you can find screwed up modified junk everywhere. Show me one true factory stock restoration. I have never seen one anyplace. The bed wood is a dead giveaway. Everyone wants natural wood color, sorry that aint factory.

I think I agree with the above post about using a modern chassis cut to fit. As for the older 350 engines they have plenty of power to pull your trailer. I guess the guy who said he didn't think they did wasn't around in the 60'70's when that was what we had and got by just fine. I think I'd perhaps go for a later model perhaps like a 96'+ to get the 5.3 Vortec and OD transmission. I've pulled heavily laden 2 axle trailers with that combination across the country with no sweat at all. Also you'll likely have to rewire the truck anyway so getting the computer circuitry from a donor is a no brainer and lots of people have done this swap so there's lots of good input both here and at Inliners & Chevytalk. This is likely to be the best and least expensive route in the long run plus you'll get PS and PB in the deal so there is all you've asked for;
Drivability, dependability, economy, safety and performance. Good Luck and be sure to keep us posted with lots of photos and Welcome Aboard.

Another vote for Truck's suggestion and thanks for the laugh Truck, a stock restore is about as rare as feathers on a fish anymore.

Thanks for all the info guys... anyone else reading with more views and opinions please keep them coming.

I hear you, I do... however.

As to restoring it... that would be great in an ideal world, I agree. However as I stated the original engine and rear are long gone as are the seats. I guess I could replace those with something similar, but this is to be my only vehicle. One which I intend to enjoy driving daily and everyone around me will get to enjoy it as well. Its not going to be chopped, its not going to get an outrageous engine or get huge tires to become the next mini gravedigger... its going to be my truck. Whether it has a load of salvaged wood in the back going to my art studio, a picnic at the beach or my hauling my 1930's fortune telling booth to the next circus gig... its going to be loved and used as any non perfect old truck can be, but it needs to be highly functioning.

I can't be hauling a vintage 22 foot trailer across the country on todays highways with no power steering, one windshield wiper, old brakes etc. I think its a tradeoff for sure. I always prefer my vintage and antiques things to be fully original whenever possible. I am a huge collector of vintage clothing, when I say collector I also mean 'wearer' things that don't fit me are not part of the collection. It is something that I wear for any occasion.

I grew up with my dad owning (and using) his 1956 Chris Craft cabin cruiser at the Jersey shore... she wasn't all original under the decks but those memories are lovely ones. She served the family and the Coast Guard Reserve through the 60's through 2008 when he died. Now someone else is restoring her back to her original glory. While this is a happy thought for me, I am reminded of slow moving family trips into brackish waters, towing vessels in distress wether on patrol or not, and realize sadly that her days of mackerel fishing on the Atlantic are long gone.

Thanks for the info, I'll share this with my mechanic. Sounds very logical.

I used to pull my trailer by the way with a 2002 chevy S-10 (6 cylinder) pulled it across route 80 the whole way from Pa to San Francisco and twice into that big event in the desert. With rear stabilizing/load distribution package, an extra trans cooler, I was good to go. The trailer only weighs about 3,000 lbs.

I'll get a photo bucket or something together for photos shortly

Well if you dead set on putting a V8, why not a 348 or a 409, something different, or maybe a 302 GMC (oh how I want one) then it would at least kind of look stock. And yes I was around in the 70's my dad always had the 350 chevy's and I also remember you darn near had to haul a trailer full of gas just to make it to the next gas station. While I can't argue that putting a crate motor into one of these would be very effective. They are as common as air, and shows absolutely no imagination, and even less respect for a classic collectible. Not to mention the gas prices, trying to feed one of these things (even with the original engine) in a daily driver. I have 3 cars, my little bitty toyota for daily use, my truck for my truck, and my mustang for going fast, (well that is relative statement anymore with the ever increasing state patrol revenue generation agency presence) I mean its your thing you can do what ever you want with it, and it seems you are absolutely committed to carving it up, (many people do it, I shouldn't be surprised, there is even whole section on this very forum for such a thing) I am just trying to give you a couple more options, how about a 503 GMC fire truck engine? That ought to pull your trailer. Why couldn't you haul a trailer without power steering? They used to drive semi trucks without power steering.

My buddy and I have done two, one '51 5 window pickup using a 305 TPI/700R4, the other a '53 panel with 350TBI/4L60e. Used a Speedway or Classic Performance Parts engine crossmember. This stiffens the frame enough for regular driving, dunno about towing, it also as well has an automatic type rear crossmember. Both trucks run great, look good, start and run great when cold and with the AC on, and keep up with modern traffic on any road.

V8'S are great, built big sixes like the GMC 302 or the Chevy 261 are "mo betta" in the getting extra horses but keeping that old school feeling in your Advance Design or Art Deco truck.

Then again of the four trucks I own all of them have a six banger in them so I just may be a little predjudice.

-Mike-

I have seen the pictures and write ups of people butchering the old frames of 1950's trucks for what ever. It really makes no sense, to ruin something that is impossible to buy new now or even find used (someday because all are chopped up). It also makes no sense to go the incredible cost for the fancy aftermarket parts for a suspension etc either when you can buy a frame from a newer truck with all the fancy suspension, powersteering that you could want, the work is done for you its pretty much a put the parts on it type of deal if you do your home work. And it should cost way less than the parts would to chop your frame and add reiforcements etc. In any of this mod stuff everyone seems to just factor in cost of parts, well it takes time to do the mods. If you do it yourself its still not free, do you go work for a boss for free? If you can't weld or are not real mechanical then you have to pay someone to do it.
The newer truck frame is the cheap and easy good way to do what you want to do. Its a matter of fabricating the mount system.
I personally don't ever think any of the newer vehicles now will ever be considered collector cars or trucks, cept maybe the retro cars being made now. Chop the new stuff up, not the old.

Thanks for your feedback... Well, I am not sure how to answer your question as to why not these other engines. But as you may remember I am not able to work on my car or truck myself... I am looking for something reliable, and common, incase I break down in another state or on the other coast. The 350 has the power I would need, perhaps more than enough, and is a common as air as you point out... a good thing if I break down, and everyone will be able to work on it. I'm not looking to trick this out, perhaps the 350 make you think that?

I did pull my trailer with the V6 in my 2002 chevy s-10 just fine once i added a stiffening package to the rear and an extra coolant system to the trans. That was a fully modern truck and engine, however. The one thing about the 6cly in the chevy s-10 was I was at my max towing capability...so the worry I was going to over stress the engine once I had added cargo to the bed was always a concern...add in desert heat on occasion.

So a modern larger 6 cal might be fine, The first suggestion I had was the 350 but also from someone without towing knowlege.. but I am NOT married to it though.

As to something larger... I am not interested in the power. I am concerned about gas mileage and I will look into the engines you suggested as that is far more important than unnecessary power to me.

Again I am trying to make a functional vehicle for daily use, not a weekend or show driver... I don't have that luxury where I am. I can often get around town on a bike and may one day buy a scooter if need be to tool around town cheaply or quickly... Living in SAn Fran does not afford me the extra money or space for designated vehicles, one of the tradeoffs.

Power sterring ...I've always had it, and I don't think living without it in a daily driver and in a city is really comfortable option for me. While I am in no way puny ... ease of driving is required.

Thanks Truckolet,

I do realize that all the time is money... you are quite right. As I can't do this myself especially. I can't even say what time it would take and until I can get a handle on what I need my mechanics to do he can't even wager a guess.

While I don't like the idea of chopping up something old on principle, I only get one life. There are plenty of cars and trucks in museums honestly. To let a truck that I want and that doesn't even have all its original engine, isn't low mileage or very pristine sit around to rot another decade until someone buys it to fully restore ...well it seems far fetched.

So, I have been told an S-10 (oddly for me as that was my last truck)...will do fine as a donor... where should I look to do further homework).

Assuming this is the route I take, I post the add for the '42 panel frame on Stovebolt etc so someone restoring one to buy so they can use it as their base ?

THanks for your suggestion.

It wasn't clear though...are you suggesting I keep the original frame etc on hand for when I sell the truck? My current opinion is that I will not be selling this truck ever... I am not a truck /car collector, while I'd like to have other vehicles this one is fully capable of what I need it to do... ultimately. This vehicle was carefully chosen to be very functional i.e. covered bed and an excellent mate to all of my major hobbies / interests/ ways of life: a vintage tow vehicle for an old trailer / art deco design / WWII reenacting / vintage carnival side-show touring / weekend camping out of the back / )

Or more likely I assume you are saying make these original parts available to anyone who wants to buy them for parts they can use for their own restoration projects? An endeavor that by the way I do fully endorse and fully appreciate when I see those vehicles.

Sorry you feel that way and I do understand. As for trailer however I have pulled the '49 Curtis Wright trailer with a chevy S-10 ... I may not need to change the frame after all if I change to a better V6.

But right now the truck already has a 1970's mustang V6 and presumably that rear end as it came to me. The seats are missing as are the rear's suspension supports.

I may be able to keep a 6cylinder... maybe even the V6 that is in there from a 70's mustang perhaps? I don't know if it would have the power I need to pull the trailer , I guess if I can get the stats on it I can find out, but my assumption is that the 6cyl. that I had pulling my trailer in my 2002 Chevy S-10 truck engine was tougher than that ??? But I don't know. Trouble too is right now the truck needs a new fan, master cylinder, and some work on the lights in order to even test it out...since I would still desire P/S and an AC/heat/defrost and need to stiffen up the front end, it doesn't make seem to make sense to fix what I have in order to just test it especially as I don't even know the mileage on the motor or rear. Not to mention the rear was not properly attached... the springs are shifting...

any further suggestions ? I think I'll search out some vintage trailer sites too, to see what people have down with their tow vehicles.. Thanks in advance if you have more input.

Jeremy,
At the risk of getting hunted and burned at the stake by the purists, I say do whatever you like man, its your truck and you know what you are going to use it for. Using a modern chassis and driveline would probably be ideal, but I'm sure the old timers who purchased these trucks to begin with used em to haul, pull and tow more than they were ever designed to do. I know the trucks on the farms were basically loaded until you couldn't load anymore no matter the weight. They won't go fast, handle well, or stop well, but will get the job done. Let us know how it all goes, post pics of your project as you go and let us follow along. The main thing is to enjoy these old trucks.

Jeremy,

I have a 59 that is mostly orig.6cyl. I kept it that way because everyone else did the v8 swap.

I see that what you have is really not much of an original truck. It's yours so do what you want, when it's driving down the street 98% of the people that see it will only say wow, what a nice old truck. They have no idea what motor is in it ,or what motor is suposed to be in it.

My suggestion would be a 4.3 chevy v6 they have over 200 horsepower, more than enough to do what you want.An automatic trans with overdrive, upgrade the brakes and steeering/rear end and you will be set.

Good luck, explore your options but remember it's your truck, not everybody elses.

We butchered the two that belong to my buddy, both start run & drive like late model vehicles do-idle w/AC on or even cold. Both will keep up w/modern traffic on any road. One has discs all around, the other disc/drum, both have power steering using a rack. Everywhere he goes folks try to buy either one.


It is your truck to do with as you please.

Hey thanks for reading this all...and yes people keep missing the fact that this is not some cherry barn find that is all original.

I'm just trying to get everyone's opinion as I've never done this and picking the correct or best direction is my goal to get what I want/need for me.

I prefer the idea of keeping it on its original frame and just adding the parts I want, but several people have just said to drop the body onto an S-10 that already has everything... cutting the frame and modifying the S-10 parts to fit the panel body. As for the additions you suggest P/S breaks, a good 6 cal, auto trans, I'd also like heat/AC/Defrost and some sort of tilt steering - remembering this is my only vehicle !
Would you still modify or just go the s-10 route... putting yourself in my shoes too where I can only assist in the work.

Thanks for chiming in , much appreciated.

heres a idea, you could find like a 58-62 chevy pickup on craigs that runs for like a 1000, Id look for a full ton pick up, and swap bodies., sell off the sheet metal for the 58-62 on craigs and the original frame..

woULD A 261, 283 ,or a 305 pull his trailer? Im not expert by anymeans but it seems to me if you had time you could pull and things with a 4 speed with granny right? you wont be cruising down the interstate though.

Me i dont mind taking the scenic route from denver to boulder.. we can get there from our house in my wifes car in 25 min.. takes me about 40 on t minhe county roads, but i enjoy DRIVING
my car

Jeremy,

Why not go to some local shows, and meet the local bolters? I'll bet that someone near you, might have a truck similar to what you're thinking of building. I'll bet that they'd probably give you a ride, and tell you about some of the pitfalls along the way.

Those mods if done right can make a great truck. The 350 engine is smooth & strong. The value of the truck will be as good or better then a stock one. BUT, if you are going to have all that work done at a shop, you better have real deep pockets. This kind of thing usually is done yourself unless it is a high doller classic or you are madly in love with it.

That was a great idea... I dont have the time to wait .. there is no West coast group formed at this point, one is coming but who knows when that would be and when their first event would be.

It looks like a Chevy s10 donor chassis swap may be my best option .

If you do not do your own work and plan on hiring the work out. You more then likely will come out cheaper just buying a truck that is already completed or close to being completed. And the good thing about buying one that is already done you can drive it and see if you like the way it rides. With the way the economy is these days there is always folks out there needing money and selling the classic trucks for a darn good deal. The reason I say this is that I did all my own work on a 50 3100 frame off resto mod. I kept the original frame and changed over to disc brakes, power brakes, tilt column, 400 sbc with th350 trans 12 bolt rear end and did all the body work paint. And i have $8500 in parts. And I did not install A/C just a vintage air heater defrost unit.So add about $1000 to the $8500. If I was to have hired the work out I would have had at leat $16,000 in the truck if not more. I also put leather power heated seats and a console out a wrecked Acura in the truck and installed a universal wiring harness. On the outside the truck looks pretty much original. But if you have the money to burn then go for having someone else do the work for you. here is some pics [IMG]http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/48447/2473195980107361323S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG] And here is one of the inside the cab [IMG]http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/14120/2517496460107361323S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG] and one of the engine [IMG]http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/48806/2103605370107361323S600x600Q85.jpg[/IMG] Sinced the pics were taken I have added a spare tire rack and arm rests and some stainless trim around the door panels. So add about $200 more to the $8500

Old rigs are vary cool when kept all original and a lot of fun to drive.I know done it a lot. But you just don't see them out in the winter. Why? they suck in the snow and I wouldn't want to do a panic stop with any type of trailer with the original brakes or steering. Not to mention vacuum wipers and poor defrosters.I agree its a crime to hot rod a cherry old rig but that is not what you have.Yes you could restore it, but any thing you put on it that wasn't on it when it rolled of the assembly line isn't original to that truck. So I believe making it safe and comfy is fine.

have to disagree goneagain, they can do just fine in snow in addition, the truck in question here was about a panel, which does even better than a pickup because they have better weight distribution, and there's no reason electric wipers can't be fitted to any year - I've been using pre-72 trucks as daily drivers for decades, local and cross country

Bill

I think the fact that you're getting another old "Bolt" back on the road is cool no matter how you go about it. Hopefully, you'll be keeping us informed on the build.

John

I don't recommend the S-10 chassis swap for your truck, being that it is a panel. I've put my 46 GMC pickup on an S-10 frame. There are some clearance issues with the frame at the front corners of the cowl that take some creativity to get around, and the S-10 frame kicks up a lot, which isn't as big of a deal in a pickup as it is in a panel. You'll have to bring up your floor in the back quite a bit, unless you want the body to sit 8-10" off the frame. It's not a good option for non-pickups. I had to raise the bed floor about 4" in my pickup because of the rear frame kick.

Here's what I recommend (and I'll probably get flamed for it):

Get a fuel injected 4.3 or 350 from a newer donor, complete with the computer, etc. You can get wiring harnesses for these for $300-$400 to make it easier too. Put in a new universal rear end kit with either leaf springs or a 4-link with coil-overs. Either will give you better handling and sway resistance when towing a trailer. Hang a rear end of the width you want on this suspension, with 3.42 or 3.73 gears.

Put a new straight axle under the front end (dropped if you want), or just get a disc brake setup for the front axle that's there. Either way, it should have discs in the front, with power brakes. You can get a uni-steer rack that works great with the straight axle front suspension.

If you do that, you'll have a nice handling vehicle with a reliable modern engine that you can get parts for almost anywhere. It will also look more along the lines of stock.