The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop TBI on a 1959 235

Thanks! I am using the stock 1 bbl carburetor with an adaptor to the TBI. My goal is to keep it as simple and cost effective as possible. Of course cost effective means a little bit slower process.

I look forward to your progress. I too would like to try a TBI but was under the impression that I needed a 4 bbl instake. I would prefere to use the stock manifold to keep the apprearance of stock.

Very cool, well I update as I go, as far as I have been able to tell it should go very smoothly.

I have been asked where I had the adaptor made, and how much it cost. The guys name is Steve Gambino, and his e-mail address is stevebigtime@yahoo.com. He was real good to work with, and the final product cost me $60. If you contact him just let him know that I gave you his info, my name is Kevin Hibbs.

You could use a DC to DC regulator to give the injection unit a constant voltage source. Then you could kee the stock generator.

I've been following this topic since it started and am very interested in seeing it complete. Keep plowing ahead!

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You could use a DC to DC regulator to give the injection unit a constant voltage source. Then you could kee the stock generator.

I've been following this topic since it started and am very interested in seeing it complete. Keep plowing ahead! [/quote]

Where might I find a DC to DC regulator?

Good news, I got down to the junkyard just within the 30 days allowed for an exchange of my TBI unit, and I grabbed a nice one from a 1992 4.3l, so that is good. The drawback is that the 4.3l TBI routes the fuel lines out the back of the TBI which interferes with the oil filter that mounts to the intake manifold. I will snap some pics when I get a chance, but my thought at this point, and I am open to other suggestions, is to weld some studs to the firewall and just mount the oil filter housing there.

I also starting chopping away at the wiring harness. With all of the info out there it really has not been too difficult. The one thing I wish I had done was releas the individual wire clips from the ECM harness rather than cutting them off. I was a little rambunctious initially and cut a few that did not need cut. They are easily fixed, but would have been easier to have just pulled them in the beginning.

Digikey. A quick search yielded th following: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/CC10-1212SR-E/445-3305-ND/917526

Max current is 1 amp out though so if that's not enough you need to search similar products.

Thanks! I will look more into that.

Bill mentioned earlier that I am looking for 13.8 to 14.2 at the battery, does that mean I would run the DC Regulator between the generator and the battery? Or between the battery and the computer? Or somewhere else?

Sorry i havent had more time to add details on my suggestion lately.

You run it between whatever your positive line is and the computer. The idea of the DC to DC converter is that regardless of the voltage level and fluctuations on the input side the output ends up being a rock steady output at whatever voltage you select.

Let's say you want a clean uninterrupted supply to the computer of 13 volts at one amp. If you find a converter that takes a 9 to 14 volt range with a 1 amp output then it doesn't care what the generator output is or battery voltage is or what the rest of ciruit draw does to the voltage it always outputs 13 volts solid. It will keep the 13 volts until the voltage into the converter falls outside the input range, in this example 9 to 14 volts.

I just picked some randonumbers here so you will have to choose what your input range is, max current draw of the computer and what you want the output voltage at.

At digikey you can find the components and hack the converter into your harness or if you search around you can find purpose made units. The are commonly used on race cars where they don't run an alternator and just need to run the ignition for a race duration. The converter keeps a constant voltage to the ignition while the battery drains during the race. After the race the charge the battery back up.

That sounds pretty great, I guess I need to find out what current to supply to the computer then? Anybody have any ideas?

Look at the factory wiring diagram for whatever throttle body you're planning to use, and check out the fuse size dedicated to powering the injector assembly. That's by far the highest current draw you'll have. The keep-alive circuit on the computer will be fused at a much lower capacity than the injector quad drivers. Virtually all the sensor circuits will be measured in milliamps, so the power supply and the injector coils will use the majority of the current.

Since original-equipment systems get by without a fancy isolated-power setup, I can't imagine why one would be necessary on a retro-fit system. The reference voltage to most of the sensors is set at 5 VDC and supplied by a filtered voltage-dropping circuit, and the injectors are designed to run on straight battery voltage with the quad drivers providing the ground. The magnetic coils in the injectors dampen out most voltage spikes by inductive reactance. If you wanted to smooth out any spikes with a big electrolytic capacitor in parallel with an inductor wired into the input circuit, that might be OK, but I believe even that would probably be overkill.
Jerry

Jerry are you saying that I can just use the stock setup, generator and everything, without the converter and the GM system should compensate for any fluctuations on its own?. Am I understanding you correctly?

PS- Your knowledge is just a bit over my head, I am pretty sure I was following, but if you could use a little more common language it would be helpful for me.

Maybe. But if it were me I would use an alternator. It can keep up at idle speeds better than a generator unless the engine is idling rather fast. If I remember right, the alternator usually last longer than a generator, and may give a more constant voltage.

Also, if you add in headlights, tail lights, and heater /ac running at some point the generator may not quite keep up.

But Jerry could certainly answer better than I could about that.

Correct,
I think some may be combining a stable voltage and a clean voltage in the same discussion.
While both are important it is my main concern that the generator never really had a level output voltage.
I only worked with generators for a few years as I was growing up so I know there are many here more familiar with them. But my experience with them was they really dropped off in voltage at idle.
I'm sure you "could" install the TBI system and it would actually run with what you have.
The problem with it is the system will change it's output as the voltage changes.
The electric fuel pump will slow as the voltage drops and that will decrease fuel pressure. Then as you speed up the pressure will increase.

This will make it more difficult to properly tune the system to the engine.
I know there are several companies that specialize in converting a stock generator to an alternator using the same case or you can buy them already made.
I do caution against trying to use a newer 1 wire alternator setup as they have the same problems at idle. They need to be excited to start charging and most require a raise idle to start it charging.
The older 10 and 12SI 3 wire systems work pretty good when setup per www.madelectrical.com or the newer CS series of alternators designed to provide a high output at a low rpm.

I am hearing you guys, but what do you think about what RingLeader here was saying? I mean, isn't it possible to run a DC to DC converter to the computer and or the relays for both the fuel pump and the the injectors, or rather run one converter to supply all those components?

If so, what volt range and amp out put would I need? Or is there a resource I can read up on for this info?

OK, guys, I give up! Do it however you want! Even 50 years of experience on these systems can't compete with off-the-wall theoretical flights of fantasy. The factory fuel injection systems are already built so rugged that they can operate in spite of some gangbanger with his pants halfway to his knees installing a 14 jillion watt sound system that throws voltage spikes everywhere and rattles windows a block away, so I doubt that a few transient voltage spikes from a DC generator armature are going to do anything dreadful.

BTW, my engineer brother is under contract to develop theoretical electronic scenario models for a couple of automotive manufacturers when he's not busy redesigning the guidance systems for ballistic missiles. They pay him $1,000.00 a day for his knowledge. Maybe I'll ask him for his opinions on the matter.
Jerry

My bet is it would work fine off the generator, I do think that if you throw in the heater and lights it may get close on what the generator can supply. Especially if you add a/c to it at some time. I don't think you need to worry about extra equipment to catch any rogue voltage spikes.

The battery will act as a good buffer for any small voltage spikes. It's the large spikes you have to worry with. The type caused when some one decides they want to test their alternator by removing one of the batter cables from the batter to see if the engine will still run.

I'm with Jerry on this one.
Why look for ways to add more stuff just to compensate for something.
Just make sure the charging system works properly.
If your lights dim when you let off the gas then it's not working properly (for a modern system).

The battery is 13.2v not 12v.
The charging system should have an output from 13.8v to 14.2v to be operating properly.
That includes at idle.
If your system can not maintain that then it should be upgraded.


If you just want to install the EFI and have it start and run your engine then do nothing. It will start and run.

Awesome, thanks Jerry, Roy, and Bill! I will give it a go as is. I believe that you guys know what you are talking about, and at the same time I am willing to be a guinea pig. Like I mentioned before, I am trying to do this as inexpensively as possible partially because I figure others will be in that boat too.

I have my TBI rebuild kit and will be getting to that next. I have not done much to the harness lately, so that is on the list too.

Jerry, I need ya here, don't give up! I try and live and by the old proverb that says, "in the multitude of counselors there is safety." I am trying to get input from a number of people, and there will be varying opinions at times. But I appreciate it all.

Not running a generator or tbi myself I suggested the dc/dc converter based on this post. It is easy to try without it. Good luck!

Finally made a little progress on the TBI this weekend. I rebuilt the unit, which was very straightforward.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/847bb4b5.jpg

And then I mounted it onto the engine. I tried to get a good shot of it, but all my angles were pretty rough. Oh well, I will take a better one later. Here is what I took today.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/a89db874.jpg

Note on the second picture how one of the fuel lines is going to interfere with the stock oil filter housing. My plan at this point is to weld some studs onto the firewall and mount the oil filter there.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/3ec85a38.jpg

That looks very nice. Do you have a pic of the TBI and the adapter in place?

Kevin,
It looks like your injectors are installed 90* out.
The pins should line up across the TBI.
If you remove them you will see a very small roll pin on the bottom of each injector. That pin lines up with a small recess cast into the inside of the injector pod. I recommend installing the lower oring into the injector pod and not on the bottom of the injector. Then use some light grease or oil to lube the injector prior to install. That will help keep the oring from pinching or rolling.

I would also recommend checking the throttle shaft for play.
They can get worn and if there is too much play it may cause an unstable idle due to a vacuum leak.

I couldn't tell from the pics but if you have a flat throttle position sensor then there are felt dust seals that go on each end of the throttle shaft.They are under the pressed on caps.
If you have the round TPS then there are none and just a black plastic cap on the TPS end that the dust seal rides on between the TPS and the plastic cap.

HTH
Bill USN-1

Sorry the pics above are so bad, I will take a picture in better light.

Bill, I will double check the TPS to see which one I have. I did line up the pins on the bottom of the injectors (or at least I intended to), but I will double check to make sure I did not totally miss something.

I just double checked and see where I went wrong...

Bill, thanks for catching the injectors being off, I fixed that real quick this morning. Here is a picture of the TPS, I am not sure which one I have per your description. I replaced one felt seal behind it during the rebuild and the shaft seems solid.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/025612ac.jpg

And here are some better pics of the TBI and adapter set up:

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/b12faa80.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/7be66e5e.jpg

You have the 92 and up TBI with the round TPS connector.
The injectors look better! :-)

Been working hard on the harness today, it was good to make some significant progress today. Here are a couple shots of the process. Pretty much all I have left is the 2 relays and some odds and ends.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/52a8fcf6.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/62fff0e9.jpg

Hey Bill, I am planning on running the knock sensor, and one of my sources says that the brown wire coming from the knock controller goes to D1 and a ground lug. However, in a diagram from binderplanet D1 also goes to the ALDL. I assume it is a ground circuit for the whole system, is that right?

Also, I have the relays that came from the donor, but they are both 4 pin, not the Bosch 5 pin style, are they usable or do I need to replace them?

Kevin,
I think your confusing the VSS-speed sensor with the Knock sensor/ESC.
The VSS has the brown wire and connects directly to the ECM at pin A10. The other wire goes to ground which on GM is blk/wht.

From the factory some also T off the brown to the ALDL connector but it is not needed since speed data is output thru the ALDL data stream when you log data or use a scanner.

The knock sensor connects to the ESC which is the little 3x3 black part. It hen sends the signal to the ECM pin B7 on a blk wire.

Any relay will work as long as it it connected properly.
All the ones i have seen have a little diagram on them so it doesn't really matter what the pin letter/number are. Just match the wire to the diagram.
There is a ground and 12V from a switched source that turns on the relay.
Then there is normally a batt 12v setting on one of the contacts and when the relay is on it passes that 12v to the output where you have the fuel pump or ECM or injectors or anything else connected.

There are several factory relay examples in the diagrams provided on binderplanet and in the wiring FAQ I give the standard Bosch connections also. Bosch can be 4 or 5 pin. They can have 2- 87 outputs or an 87 and a 87a. Each version is a little different so refer to the wiring FAQ.

So all bases are covered.

I was referring to a step by step on Pirate 4x4. Here is a link to the picture:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=224416&stc=1&d=1137205825

And what he said:

This circuit is four wires:
black plug pin C to ECM pin B7
blue plug pin E to knock sensor
brown plug pin D to ECM pin D1 and to a ground lug
pink/green plug pin B to +12V (see note above)

I will check out the FAQ for the relay info. Thanks.

Kevin,
Sheet 5 of the factory diagrams has the KS/ESC wiring.

Wiring FAQ

Sheet 5

If you look at the attachments at the bottom of the wiring FAQ post 1 you will see a couple attachments.
One is a single page PDF diagram drawn by a member there and the other is a voltage check spreadsheet for when you get it all together and think your ready to start it.

Ok, so if I am reading sheet 5 right, the brown wire from the ESC is basically a ground wire, and the guy on Pirate seemed to choose D1 at the ECM for the ground.

Could that present a problem, or should that be fine?

If you look at sheet 1, D1 is system gnd-blk/wht and D2 is sensor gnd-blk/red or ppl/blk depending on model/yr. So it's your choice.
If you look at the wiring FAQ you will see a pic of the actual circuit board in the ECM.
I have the solder joints from the connectors labeled. Look close and you will see D1 and D2 are actually tied together inside the ECM. So electrically they are the same location.

Ok, got the harness pretty much done. I have three connections to the ECM that I still need to do. The first is the 12v when the key is on, the second is the SES light, and the third is the starter crank signal. The connection is as follows:

C9- ppl/wht- Starter crank signal. Goes to the small terminal of the starter. The stock scout wire is white that goes there. Tells the ECM you are trying to start the engine.

Since I have the foot starter, where would I connect this? Also, what is the best place to get my 12v when the key is on?

Connect it to the small terminal on the solenoid that the foot switch wire connects to.
I design all my stand alone EFI harnesses the same, The battery 12V should come straight from the battery post on the starter solenoid. That means the GM main red wire that becomes org once it goes thru a fuse. See my step by step FAQ that addresses each connection.

For the 12v switched this is the pink with black and is 12V coming out of the power relay. For this you should have the battery 12V going to the relay on pin 30 for a bosch relay, and then to energize the relay(s) you should use the 12v wire that used to go to the +pos side of the ignition coil. If you had a ballast resistor then use the wire prior to the ballast resistor so you get the full 12v.
This should be shown in the wiring FAQ and the step by step FAQ's already linked.
If you have not read thru those FAQ's you should take a few minutes and review them.

The main point is that you should not use any of the original wiring to carry a load of the system. The 12V from the key switch that went to the coil must be hot in the on and the start position. And it should only be used to energize the relay.
You should have your ignition 12v now coming from one of the 2 relays that power your system.

I normally use 1 relay to power the fuel pump and the other relay to power the system and ignition. i also use a min of 14ga wire to feed the coil from the relay.

Just as an update, I have been doing a lot of body work lately. The TBI and harness are pretty much ready to go. Once I get the cab and front clip pulled and patched I will set the engin, then the body, then start playing with dialing in the TBI. Hopefully that will be in the next couple weeks but you know how that can be. I will post up when I make some progress.

Not a ton of progress on the TBI side of things, but I did get the fuel pump mounted on the passenger frame rail:

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/08bfb043.jpg

I need to come up with a way to secure the fuel filter to the frame as well, I was thinking maybe a large hose clamp.

As far as body work, the front clip is nearly done, and I am patching the rear cab corners. It seems endless at times...

Looks like you hit the JY and grabbed the Ford F250 frame mounted E2000 pump and filter.
make sure you use a see thru filter like the fram G3 or the wix 33003 between the pump and the tank.
The factory metal filter is fine after the pump as a final filter if you want to keep it.

I use rubber lined adel clamps to secure to the frame to help isolate pump noise.

[img]http://www.binderplanet.com/photopost/watermark.php?file=15704&size=1[/img]


pump pic

Any recommendations on what kind of fuel line to use, and methods of attaching it to the pump? Am I just looking for high pressure rubber fuel hose and hose clamps?

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I got the engine dropped into the frame:

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/298b3e7b.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m537/kjhibbs99/Apache%20Rebuild/89152d48.jpg

You can use the Dorman 800-119 quick disconnect fittings on the pump and the metal filter. They will allow you to use 3/8" rubber fuel injection hose and fuel injection clamps you can get from any parts store, ebay or amazon. Your choice but they all have them.

ebay 800-119

3/8 clamps