The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Carter W-1 carburetors used on/for Chevrolet

I looked for some time for a place to publish this article that would do the color pictures. Finally gave up, and published it myself.

If the moderators feel the link is inappropriate, please remove it.

Carter Chevrolet W-1 article

Hopefully, the information will be useful. Will add other pictures to the article from time to time.

Jon.

Don't know why anyone would have a complaint about your educating us about the W-1. I've been thirsting for some information on this series carbinator, thanks a bunch. Now if I could only find some information on rebuilding these and some descriptions of the circuits. There is a lot of this type info on that dirty old Rochester B.
Thanks again,
Denny Graham

Jon---I sure hope they don't remove it; it's a great resource to have all that information in one place. Thanks for sharing it. For me, it's also timely information as I am currently looking for a manual choke Carter for my 1950 216. I guess I should be looking for a W-1 574s or 483s; or a YF 787s or 964s? Could you share any quick pros/cons for W-1 vs. YF? Thanks!
Dale

Thanks CarbKing!

This valuable and should be kept as a Tech tip as well.

Dale - the answer depends on if you can buy gasoline where you live; or if you are forced to use deathanol.

The Carter YF is arguably the finest GASOLINE single barrel downdraft carburetor ever made anywhere, anytime, anyplace. BUT, it has a diaphragm type accelerator pump. Diaphragms DETEST deathanol (I can't fault them, I don't like the stuff either!).

If you use a diaphragm accelerator pump in deathanol, AND CAN KEEP THE PUMP WET, it will still function fairly well. However, once the diaphragm has been in deathanol and is allowed to dry, it begins to harden. Later it cracks and fails.

The W-1 can be used with virtually any fuel (it uses a leather accelerator pump); but like any other carburetor, a mix of more than 10 percent deathanol will require recalibration (and a 10 percent mix MAY require recalibration).

Jon.

Jon--We may be lucky here in Colorado Springs, most gas stations have real gasoline, some have 10% deathanol. Do the YF diaphragm problems occur even at 10%? I guess nobody makes a replacement YF diaphram of a deathanol-resistant material? Not a big enough market? One last question: Is it fair to say that the later model W-1's are a close second to the YF??? Thanks again.

I am unaware of a source for a deathanol-resistant YF diaphragm.

The late W-1 (483s/574s/684s) is a close second to the YF.

Jon.

You guys got to talking about the YF’s and I just had to go out and take a look for myself at the inside of this 2100s that I picked up in the junk yard for twenty bucks. I have it on the bench and when I opened it up the bottom of the bowl was covered with an 1/8" of white powder. It must have been sitting in the yard for thirty years or more. The diaphragm was “vulcanized”, almost, to the die castings but after a little soaking it finally let loose, with out prying with a BFSD I might add!
Aren't Buna-N sheet goods available that would work with alcohol? And couldn’t The Carburetor Shop manufacture a stem and Buna-N pump for a replacement? Apparently from what you say, they are not already are in the, “better” rebuild kits? So what’s the answer, besides don’t use gas with alcohol, I mean, what do you do when you rebuild the YF’s? I don’t know of any stations around here that are selling non-alcoholic gasoline anymore.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Thanks for the great info, carbking! Hope it can stay here for all to learn from. If not, maybe to graduate to a Tech Tip! Thanks again, always great to read your posts, a real pro sharing with us amateurs.

Denny - The NAPA part numbers provided earlier by another 'Bolt member are good.

2-4218 is for the pump diaphragm assembly and runs ~$12.00

2-5096 is a rebuild kit containing all gaskets, diaphragm and idle adjustment screw. It runs $19.96.

I don't know what material the diaphragm is made of but I agree with you that Buna-N of the proper thickness should work okay.

I'll be taking my 30+ year old NOS YF apart tomorrow and will let you know what the original diaphragm looks like compared to the new one in the kit.

If you don't have the Carter parts list and service form 5056A let me know and I'll send it to you.

Don

Thanks Don, I emiled ya.
Denny G

The diaphragm used on the YF has a convolution; this means a steam die to reproduce the parts. The Carburetor Shop buys their diaphragms for the YF from the same suppliers (there are two) as every one else; and thus obtains the same material as every one else. Steam dies are EXPENSIVE and require LARGE quantity sales to pay off. I have requested both manufacturers to use the fluerolastimer (sp?) nitrile rubber compounds, but so far, neither has done so; stating insufficient demand, and significantly increased cost.

At this point in time, the large suppliers are scaling back on carburetor parts production, not increasing their production; again due to demand.

Steam dies are not in the budget of The Carburetor Shop.

Jon.

Thanks Jon, I haven’t seen the specific diaphragm that the YF uses but I have seen this type of diaphragm in other applications. When I pulled the old one out of the 2100s I wasn’t sure if it was formed that way or simply stretched out from use. Although the thought did occur to me that it would have to stretch a bunch to get that much bulge in it!
I can under stand the position that the manufacturers are taking. Businesses have a lot of over head to cover before they see a profit.
However this does leave a wide-open opportunity for a custom short run cottage industry. Material costs would be minimal, and it would mostly be labor. As we see more and more retirees from the baby boom era leaving their jobs I can see more and more of these, I hate to use it again, “cottage industries” popping up for these types of products. When a guy has SS, a pension and Medicare coming in, ya don’t have to make $50 an hour for your effort anymore.
I’m part Scotsman and I wouldn’t baulk at a $20 or $30 dollar price tag on a part like this to avoid problems down the road.
If you have any more information on steam dies, i.e., the process, design, etc. or the sources for the proper compounds for the sheet goods I’d appreciate hearing about them.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Hey Don, those NAPA numbers 2-4218 and 2-5096 that ya posted come up as "No such number" on NAPA's online catalog.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny - The guy at the NAPA counter punched the numbers in for me and they were valid. I bought the kit using the 2-5096 number and will post pix of the contents later today. The kit contained all gaskets, pump shaft with installed diaphragm, balls, springs, retainers, valves, etc.

Don

It’s probably one of those things that they don't show in their online catalog. The main distribution warehouse is over in Naperville, IL about 30mi east of me. I'm gonna be over near there today and I'll stop at the counter and see what they come up with. I wasn't gonna get into this 2100s for a while but I dissected it when you guys were talking about the accelerator pump and one thing leads to another and I suppose I might as well see if it's worth saving.
I have two issues with it though; the one thing is the pump diaphragm and alcohol, all the gas around us is 10%. And the other is the throttle body, its set up for a 235. I have to see if I can slot the base, which I hate to do or make up some kind of a reducer adaptor to fit my 216 manifold. I also need to look into re-jetting it for the 216, I’m not sure if I have to change metering rods also. I thought Jon said they made their own jets and metering rods, wonder if he sells them separately or with a kit. The other option is to simply rebuild it and keep it boxed in case I ever break down and put a 235 in the old gal.

I do have the W-1 that I got the same day with the smaller bolt pattern, but I haven’t yet been able to figured out what model it is. Also the throttle shaft in the W-1 is froze in the bore and after soaking it for a couple of weeks now I’m still unable to work it free. I may try to put it in the press and give it a little bump from the end to see if that will loosen it up. I don’t want to tap on it for fear of mushrooming the shaft. As expensive as these carbs are getting I figured if worst came to worst I could put the throttle body in the Bridgeport and remove the shaft, then try to find a new shaft or make up a new shaft my self.
Just what I need, more stuff on my plate!!!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny - It is possible no new runs have been made recently, and those owning the existing die are still selling existing inventory. If I, and others, could convince those currently owning the die to use the flueroelastimer material, prices such as you mention might be possible. If a new die were developed by a "cottege industry" player, absolutely no way would prices be even close! Even a cheap steam die can easily hit 6 figures! Thats a LOT of overhead for a declining market!

Jon.

Here is the photo of NAPA Part # 2-5096 Carter YF Overhaul Kit.

Don

I stopped at NAPA to day and the numbers were no good online at home but they did show up on the computer at the store. They had a pump but not the kit, said they could order it. It’s probably the same kit that the vendors are selling. I need to order a rear main seal so I think I’m just gonna order the kit there to. I gotta justify the $13 shipping charge some how.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny - My local NAPA looked up the part and saw that there were 6 in the warehouse (where ever that is) and said he would order it. That was in the afternoon and the kit was at the store the next morning. There were no additional shipping charges.

Don

The counter man said he could do the same but the N. Illinois distribution warehouse is over 30mi away and he said it would be better if I just order it from a closer one, that closer one is only 20mi away. now I gotta drive into there and order it then drive back to pick it up, the simpleest things have a way of getting way to complicated, that's why sometimes it's just easier to pay UPS to do the driving around.
Thanks for the numbers though.
Denny G

Now back to the W-1 and this article. It has helped in Id’ing the model in general. From the information that I’ve been able to gather here on the W-1, at this time I believe I have one of the dreaded 684’s, because it has the throttle to choke fast idle link on it and it also has the Capital ‘C’ cast into the bowl so it is a Chevrolet made (Bay City?) unit, is that correct? Jon, at the beginning of this article you mentioned that the W-1 was produced in 128 different versions for use by many different manufacturers. With out a tag it’s difficult or next to impossible for the individual to determine exactly which model that he has. How many of these 128 models were produced and/or used on the Chevrolet? If one goes by the chronology and photos that you provided the field is narrowed down considerably, in fact if I read it correctly, it sounds like the 684 stands out all by it self on the 1949, 216 Chevy’s, is that right? Were there any other versions that used the fast idle link during this period?

After a couple of weeks of soaking with “Don’t Spoil it, Kroil it” and a little carfully placed heat from the Smith Mini torch at the throttle shaft bosses, the throttle shaft finally started to break loose. More Kroil and a little polishing of the exposed portions with some Norton 320 cloth and the throttle shaft finally slid out. Because of the condition of the out side, I’m kind of afraid to open up the bowl and look inside. But after all, I suppose that’s what restoration is all about?

Jon as far as the homework, I have the Chevrolet Truck shop manual 1948-1951 and it gives a pretty good break down of the carburetor and then circuits. The only “carburetor special tool” that looks like one could not fabricate from dimensions taken from the carb itself is the T-109-25 metering rod gauge. Do you think you could explain the use of this and how someone could determine the dimensions and is it absolutely nessacary to the adjustment of this carb? How would one get the “parts and service pages from a Carter Master Manual” with out searching for years? From what I gather you hold the patent rights to these, do you offer reprints of them?

You also mention the fact that the many of the parts are virtually unique to the 684, and I’ve been hearing this for most of the past year in threads discussing the 1949 model 684, specifically which parts would these be?
Thanks for the lesson, I’m trying to do my homework but the more I work on it the more questions pop into me head.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny - the 684s is the only W-1 to have the throttle/choke link.

The metering rod tool would be very difficult for even someone with your background and tools to fabricate; but they like the parts bulletins, are readily available.

The metering rod tool allows for the absolute adjustment of the height of the metering rod. Basically, you remove the rod, insert the tool, and bend the linkage.

Give me a call sometime.

Jon.

Jon or Denny or anyone else for that matter. When I opened up my NOS carb to inspect, clean, and renew the gaskets and Diaphragm assembly I was fairly careful and took a few photos. Of course, due my inexperience, when I turned it upside down out popped a small brass or bronze needle valve. This is the pump discharge needle I think. This photo shows the square end of the needle located just above the pump assembly at about the 12:30 position

My research indicate that a ball check was commonly used although there are some carbs using a needle. My initial confusion arose because the Carter Instruction sheet calls out a pump discharge weight and a pump discharge ball. Is one preferred over the other? My inclination is to leave it as found.

Another observation is the accumulation of white powder around the gasket flange and porting. Would this be from varying atmospheric conditions during long time storage? The carb shows no other visible signs of ever having been used.

Thanks,

Don

Don - a lot of the early YF carbs did use the ball with a weight on top. I dislike using the word "all", but as far as I am aware, all of these used in YF's were superceded by the pointed needle (fewer parts to lose). Carter again occasionally use the check ball without the weight (less mass) on some of the AFB 4-barrel carbs. The mass of the discharge check valve is a "tuning aid" to time the initial discharge of the accelerator pump shot.

The white powder is zinc oxide. Carter used a sulpher-based gasket, and the sulpher in presence of humidity caused the formation of zinc oxide.

Jon.

Thanks as always Jon for your kind response. You are right about losing parts because as careful as I was and due inexperience, that pointed needle fell out of somewhere. Thank goodness I took some photos first. Even though it made no sense at all I did look around on the floor for a wayward ball as it is shown in the exploded view. A little research and you sharing your knowledge was a relief.

Just some carb cleaner, proper adjustments, and reassembly seems in order at this point. Any tips to offer?

Thanks so much,

Don

My YF has a ball and weight, I did the same thing, turned it up side down and spent the next hour and half sweeping the floor to find the ball.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2705051840098611668dKJrSD

One part that I blew it on was the spring clip, (used to call them Jesus clips) that holds the choke levers and spring on. I tried a short cut and didn’t use my safety net. Had it almost in hand and it went flyin’, spent two hours looking for that one and finally gave up. I’m gonna have to find another somewhere.
On the W-1 I didn’t take a chance and used the trick I use on the Rochester B’s, simply a dowel a couple of inches long sharpened to go in the choke shaft boss. If ya loose the grip on the clip it ends up on the dowel instead of SOMEWHERE on the garage floor.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Balinnnnnnnng - Oh *hit! At least the carb wasn't on an engine and you wondered if it went you know where.

In your photo the top and visible shape of the weight looks exactly like my needle check valve. It would make sense that if a needle was on the other end you wouldn't need a ball. Those Carter guys must have lost some balls too!

BTW, for someone who calls his computer "The Confuser" you sure have done a nice job on your WebShots album. Why am I not surprised? Do you make up the collages on WebShots or use another photo editor?

Also, that vacuum forming the transmission gasket is way cool. Very nice.

Don

Looks like the needle valve in the picture Don, but it's .140" square where the needle valve is .172" and about twice as long.
Well I wouldn't say I fluent in computer, but I actually had to start using them when we got our first Sheffield CMM's in down at work. Our first computer was a HP 8088 about the size of a suit case, and I'd tot it home at night so I could learn DOS and HP Basic to make the darn thing run. They have sure come along way since then. About the only contact I have with programing now a days is to run one. I've used PhotoShop, Illistrator and DesignCad 3D since those early days for inspection reports and it still helps me express my self now that I'm not workin anymore.
The vacuum forming or actually vacuum bagging was something that I used the last half dozen years that I worked. I worked in a couple of the labs that made detectors for our accelerator and we made a lot of carbon fiber structures to go into the target areas. We used the same tecnology that the boat builder, car or air plane builders use and vacuum bagging the parts was a common practice.
Got a picture of the B&A of that YF 2100s on another thread. The W-1 is in the cooker right now for a soak overnight. When it comes out the steel parts go into the D-Rust-It tank for a few hours then they all get a good scrubin in detergent before the steel sees the fine wire brush. Finally all the passages and threads are all chased and holes plug. I hope the W-1 comes out as good as the YF did.
Gotta go make supper for my "big old wife".
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

carbking - good stuff.

Thanks for taking the time and going to the trouble to write down and share all of that information with us.

-W