The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Problem with Starter

My starter makes a buzzing or grinding noise when I try to start my truck. It will do this three or four times, and then it will operate normally. Sometimes it sounds like the teeth on the pinion gear grinding against the teeth on the flywheel. Other times it sounds like it can't turn the flywheel and is just buzzing with the effort. My foot starter was disabled at some point and replaced with a spring-loaded ignition switch. The starter and connections are caked with mud, so maybe it's a connection problem. Haven't had a chance to check that out yet. Would a loose/dirty connection cause this problem? Since the truck is no longer using the foot switch, does that mean this starter is not original to the truck?

You have a solenoid-operated starter from either a passenger car or a later-model truck after the foot-stomp starter was discontinued. A big circular electromagnet mounted on top of the starter motor pulls a spring-loaded plunger connected to the pinion gear on the starter shaft into engagement with the flywheel gear, then a switch at the end of the plunger's stroke is made to run the starter motor. It's possible the starter brushes have a bad connection that prevents one of the solenoid windings from operating normally and pulling the gear into place, or wear and/or poor adjustment of the parts will let the armature begin to turn before the gear engages fuly.

Pull the starter off and clean it thoroughly, and look for any signs of excessive wear in the linkage. If there's nothing obvious wrong there, take the back plate off and look at the condition of the brushes. Have fun!
Jerry

Thanks. What you describe is exactly what I've got. I'll do as you suggest. It's a good job for indoors once the weather gets really cold.

A solenoid starter was available on some truck back to 1948 (6v).

A solenoid starter (ignition-key operated) was used on Forward Control and automatic-transmission trucks in 1956 (12v starter 1107626 and 12v starter 107633, respectively).

Joe, what type of transmission do you have?

It's a manual three-speed. The starter button is still in the floor and the linkage is still under the car but disconnected of course. At some point I will be restoring the original arrangement.

Got under the truck this afternoon and attempted to remove the starter but can't get to the top bolt. I'll bet this is a recurring theme with Stovebolt owners. The location of this bolt is ridiculous. I'll need a 1" open end wrench to get it, which I don't have. I'll pick one up tomorrow and get the starter out.
One thing I did notice is that the nut holding the battery cable to the starter was not on very tight. That may be the entire issue right there, but I'm removing the unit for a thorough cleaning and inspection anyway.

Hmmmmmm- - - - - -I don't remember a Chevy starter having an attaching bolt or nut with that wrench size- - - -they're usually attached with a 1/2" diameter bolt or stud with 3/4" wrench flats. Better recheck that size before you buy a wrench.
Jerry

When he said he had to hit it 3-4 times starter drive popped into my mind.

So when I take it apart, will the starter drive be located in the main body of the unit or within the solenoid on top?
I looked at the exploded diagram in my manual but since this is not the original starter, the drive mechanism might be different.

Could be that someone put a 6 volt car starter on a 12 volt truck.The flywheels have different number of teeth.That would cause grinding when engaged.

Any pointers on how to determine if it's a six-volt starter?

I finally got the starter off. I'll tell you, that upper bolt was sheer HELL to get off. It's a 3/4 and it was near impossible to get a wrench on it. I had to switch off using a box wrench, an open end, and a small adjustible.
Here is a picture of my starter:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter033.jpg[/IMG]

I disassembled the solenoid to see what I could find:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter036.jpg[/IMG]

It turns out the plunger had fused to the contact inside the solenoid.Check out the outer edge of the round silver disc and also the contact above my left index finger. You can see where the two melted together:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter039.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter040.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter041.jpg[/IMG]

I checked my brushes and commutator head. They look good to me:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter043.jpg[/IMG]

To my surprise, my local NAPA had a replacement solenoid in stock. I made the repair but have not installed the starter yet to try it out:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/56%20Chevy%20truck/Starter044.jpg[/IMG]

Looks good. good job. With everything tight and wired properly, it should work. If not, beware of the ignition switch!

Poor Joe, I know you're looking forward to that upper bolt connection.
On both of my starters, I have a stud there with a nut.
I happen to have a spare stud and nut too.
Would you like me to send them with the breather?
Jerry

True, but then it would never engage. He says it works after 3-4 trys.

In your first photo the pivot pin for the linkage is missing. I assume that was removed sometime during the job, and not gone to begin with? It looks like it's back in place in the last picture.

That pivoting yoke is critical to good operation of the starter. If it's bent or worn, the motor can start turning before the pinion gear is fully engaged in the flywheel.
Jerry

Right, I had taken it out before I took that picture. I read an earlier post (by you, I think) about how the pin and its hole can be the problem and is often overlooked. So I checked them out for wear and didn't see any. The hole is still round and the pin is in good shape. Of course the little retaining clip that keeps the pin from working its way out disappeared as soon as it had a chance. Got a new one, though.

OK, just double-checking. The place the wear usually causes problems is the area where the fork contacts the starter drive. The two round knobs that touch the drive gear assembly have a habit of wearing flat and keeping the gear from engaging the flywheel fully before the armature starts to turn. It's not uncommom on a rebuilt starter to see evidence of a weld repair on those knobs.
Jerry

Now that I did not check. If it acts up after the rebuild, I'll pull it again and check out the parts you describe.

What engine do you have? Is it in the 1956? I didn't know that the 56 had a foot starter. The starter that came off my 56 235 was a solenoid starter. It was out of a car.I have a 49 truck and was able change it over to the foot starter no problem. The starter you have in the pictures doesn't look like the one I took off the 56 straight six. It just looks like the V8 starter.

The V8 starter has 3 flange bolts, not two. If you use a 3/4" universal socket (3/8" drive) and an extension to get the ratchet positioned behind the end of the starter motor, it makes it simpler, if not easy, to get that upper bolt or nut installed.
Jerry

The engine is a 235 in a '56 pickup. The original starter was removed and is now key operated. The original foot button is still in the floor but disconnected.

Today I decided to try the repaired starter and to my surprise, the problem is worse. Before, I got a loud buzzing about a third of the time, a grinding sound a third of the time, and a successful start a third of the time. Now, all I get is the loud buzzing. I checked the connections and they are all tight. I'm beginning to think it might be what was posted here earlier, that the linkage/fork connection between the solenoid and the pinion gear might be bad. This weekend I have the joy of taking it out again. I just wanted to show you guys a picture of how it's wired. This is how it was when I got it, so I just put it back the way it was.

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/shiftlinkage018.jpg[/IMG]

NAPA had a replacement foot starter for my 50 for around $60.00. plus 18.00 core.

They may have one for your bolt. (Check prices)

could be an option if the rebuild fails.

Good Luck

That's a VERY small wire going to the start terminal on the solenoid. Before you do anything else, try shorting a cheap screwdriver blade from the big battery cable terminal to the small post where the start wire attaches. If it cranks that way, you've got ignition switch or wire problems.

Edit: You can also bypass the solenoid altogether by shorting the two big terminals together to see if the starter motor will run without engaging the drive gear. Doing that will cause a big flash as you connect the terminals, but there won't be any damage.
Jerry

Thank you, Jerry. I will try that. The thing about this truck is I know nothing about its history. The potential for surprises is huge, as I'm finding out. I'm hoping it's a wiring or switch issue because I really don't want to drop that starter again.

I have already said beware of ignition switch. Now I also say: beware of battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can use a screw driver or take out the ign switch and touch the two wires together, which bypasses the switch contacts.

Today I took a jumper wire (10 gauge) and made a connection between the big terminal on the starter and the small terminal where the start wire is attached. I get the same thing as when I try to start it with the key: A grinding, buzzing sound with the pinion gear spinning but not engaging the flywheel. So I believe I have eliminated the ignition switch and the wiring from the switch to the starter. I also followed the advice here and made a connection between the two big terminals on the starter to see if the starter would spin without the solenoid and it did.
So my next step is removing the starter again and taking it apart to see if there is wear on the fork mechanism and the contacts associated with it. I will report back with pictures.

What year truck are you dealing with? 6 or 12 volt battery? Have you checked the battery terminal voltage while you're trying to run the starter? If you've got a 6 volt starter with a 12 volt solenoid installed, the symptoms you're describing are a possibility. The starter armature should not turn at all until the gears are engaged unless you've got a very bad linkage problem between the solenoid, the drive gear, and the disc switch at the back of the solenoid. I think it's time to pull it all back apart, inspect everything again, and bench-test the starter after you reassemble it before putting it back on. With the starter motor clamped in a vise, it's possible to check out all the functions before you reinstall it.
Jerry

The truck is a 1956 with a twelve volt system that has been switched to an alternator. I assume I have a 12 volt starter, too, but since I'll be taking it all apart tomorrow, I'll check to make sure.

Hmmmm- - - -this one's getting interesting. While you've got it apart this time, use a piece of emery cloth and give the commutator a good shoeshine-motion cleanup. Look for any evidence of burned spots at the edge of some of the commutator bars indicating you might have a shorted winding or more. Also look for evidence of melted solder where the windings meet the commutator. Any telltale signs like that make the starter a good candidate for replacement.

Once it's reassembled, you can bench-test each part individually. Connect one heavy wire from a battery to the small start terminal, and touch the ground wire to the connector between the solenoid and the starter motor. This will pull the solenoid in and check the operation of the drive gear assembly without turning the starter motor. Then connect a set of jumper cables, one to the big top terminal and the other to the starter housing, and short across to the start terminal with a screwdriver. This shold cycle the solenoid and run the motor. If it does all this on the bench, you've got a good starter!
Jerry

Thanks Jerry. I'll try to do those tests tomorrow. Can't wait to see what I find.
Couldn't I use jumper cables for both those tests?

Yes, but it's a little difficult to get a jumper cable connected to the start terminal and the connector between the solenoid and the starter motor without getting some dramatic fireworks. I usually clamp a couple of 1-foot pieces of #10 wire into the jumper cables to test the solenoid operation without running the armature.
Jerry

Please pull up another vehicle to it and jump it to see what happens before taking it apart again. Just to make me happy. Like I said, beware of the battery. I didn't read that you have eliminated that yet??

Right, I did not mention that the battery is brand new. The one that came with the truck was shot.

Today, I removed the starter from the truck and performed the two tests suggested by Hotrod Lincoln. It acted exactly like it's supposed to in both tests. In the first, the solenoid pulled in and shoved the pinion gear out with a good sharp motion. In the second, the pinion gear shot out and spun like it was a brand new starter.
I took the starter apart. Here are some pictures.

Below are two shots of the fork that forces the pinion gear toward the flywheel. I don't see any problems here:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2004.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2005.jpg[/IMG]

This is a picture of the commutator head. I had not polished it before this picture. I see no signs of burning or any kind of damage:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2007.jpg[/IMG]

Pinion gear and associated mechanisms:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2008.jpg[/IMG]

I'm curious about the bubbly condition of the red paint or whatever it is seen in this picture. Is it supposed to look like this?:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2009.jpg[/IMG]

Here are two pictures of mud and grease that had gotten inside the case:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2010.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2011.jpg[/IMG]

This is the only thing that looks really suspicious to me:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2013.jpg[/IMG]

Check out the crumbled insulation below my thumb. None of the others in the case look like that. Also, there's a threadbare wire connected to it that doesn't look right:

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2014.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/bohon/Starterinvestigation2015.jpg[/IMG]

According to the bench test, my starter is good. But could it be that the problem, whatever it is, only shows itself when under a load? Also, when I tested it in the truck by bypassing the ignition switch and wires, it still acted up. So either the switch and wiring are not the problem or my test was screwy, which I don't think it was. I took a ten gauge wire, touched one end to the battery and one end to the big starter terminal. Stumped on this one but will clean everything up and await advice.

Thanks.

yes, sometime only acts that way under load under load, but that could be bad starter or bad battery.DO THE BATTERY JUMP after installed!!!!!! or buy a new starter if you don't feel like you want to install and remove anymore. But I bet you're pretty good at it now. Some auto parts store will check the starter under load at no charge.
Many years should fit. You probably should get engine numbers to see what year the engine is. If it's a 62 or newer engine, starter is cheap (interchanges with the V8's). 61 and older tough going. Maybe a used or rebuilt is available. O'rielly's and the others don't seem to have 1956/235 starters. The guys on here can tell you what motor you have without the numbers by certain features on the engine. After all, this IS the Stovebolt channel.

One thing I ran into when rebuilding the started on my 58... the drive is longer than most parts stores can get. I had to go to a rebuilder to get the correct drive.

If you replaced the drive with a new one, did you compare the length?

Did you replace the starter drive or simply clean it and try to reuse it? If you reused your original starter drive it is probably toast. What is grinding is the rollers inside trying to get a grip. And when the finally do.... it starts.

If by "starter drive" you mean the fork-shaped thing, no, I didn't replace that. I replaced the solenoid because the original was damaged.
What part would the "rollers" be?

No, the starter drive is also sometimes called the bendix. It has the gear on the end that actually engages the fly wheel. If you didn't replace that, then I would bet that is your problem. The fork you mentioned goes into the groove on the starter drive (bendix).

If you tried to clean it then the grinding would only get worse. (Don't ask me how I know). LOL

If you did replace it, did you compare the length of the old one to the new one? If it is not the right length, it won't engage the fly wheel properly. And these old stovebolt six cylinder starters use a longer starter drive. (Or at least the stomp starters do).