The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Foot starter and start-up electrical system

Hey guys, I'm just finishing up a 56 3100 with foot starter. Have it wired up and timed properly, but even though I'm getting spark it won't run. Does the green wire coming BACK from the starter switch give 12V to the coil? I've poured gas in the carb and gotten it to back-fire and then fire a few times, but now it just cranks and nothing. I couldn't find which wire went to the START tab on the key, so I jumped power from RUN to START....any help deciphering the electrical would be appreciated!

If you've got an ignition switch with a spring-loaded "start" position, it's for a passenger car, not a truck. The switch for the stomp-start engine will just have an ON and OFF position for the wire going to the upstream side of the ballast resistor- - - -no START provision at all. The small terminal on the 12 volt stomper switch is a ballast resistor bypass, and supplies straight battery voltage to the coil + terminal during cranking. Wire it to the downstream side of the resistor or the coil + terminal.
Jerry

It's got the origianl one-position switch, but on the back there's still IGN 1 IGN 2 and START terminals. It looks like a wire comes BACK from the sarter - I thought maybe to the switch, but maybe it's to the resistor. Thanks for the info - I'll keep working on it!

OK, check this out- - - -see if the Start and the Ign 2 terminals on the switch have a complete circuit between them with the switch in the run position. It's possible the resistor bypass can be wired through the switch. If so, run a wire from the small terminal on the starter switch to the start position on the ignition switch, then run a wire from the downstream position of the resistor to the IGN2 connector on the switch. Usually, ignition switches with the IGN2 position on them are designed to bypass a resistor during cranking with the ignition switch in the spring-loaded START position.
Jerry

That's what I'm thinking. This is a COMPLETE RESTO I just did, with new harness, but original switches, etc. I'm a pro bodyman/restorer, but have never run into a 56 Chevy straigh 6 with the foot pedal is all. My last resto was a Dodge Challenger and if I can get a MOPAR system figured, this can't be much harder!
I actually jumped a wire from the IGN1 to IGN 2 terminals to get full power to the coil and it fired as I said. But after cranking for a while and trying to start it, it got worse.

I was just reading a great thread about MikeR's 1966 Burb. It was an EXCELLENT thread, but then nothing after Nov 6th!!! I need to know how it ended - do you know?

I'll be back on the Chev Thursday. Thanks again. (check my blog)

What type ignition? Points? If so, what are they set at? Double check the firing order of the plug wires. Make sure dist rotor points to number 1 plug wire when 1 is at TDC. Easiest way to do this is watch the rotor while you hold your thumb over the number one spark plug hole while someone cranks the engine over. See where the rotor points when your thumb feels the pressure against it (or gets blown off the hole).

Sounds like the firing order may be off, or points not adjusted correctly. Or both.

So.... after re-tracing every FRIKKEN wire today, I found the GD new LMC wiring harness had wires inserted backwards in the 3-prong connector for the Ign Switch, so the START-IGN1-IGN2 wires where wrong... So I switched them around, re-checked that I get 9V at the coil with key on, then 12V when the foot-pedal is depressed and starter is cranked. Tried to start it again - a few weak fires...but it still wouldn't start.
Re-checked TDC, wires, firing order. Tried again - nothing.
Re-checked points - gapped to 0.16. Even checked with Oghmeter - timing is dead-on. Tried again - fired a few times, but nothing more.
Pulled the carb off and rebuilt it even!! I wasn't going to as the truck used to run fine, but what the hell... Put it back on....again, nothing more than a few fires.
Re-torqued the plugs, checked spark on #2 and #6, decided to use ETHER....which got it to fire for a bit, then I got a carb fire, threw the ether can across the shop, muffed out the carb fire with my gloves and said: "FLOCK IT". (Excuse my language).

The owners had the engine 'professionally' rebuilt and delivered to my shop, so I can't speak for it...but I'm wondering if the timing sprockets where set right....

Any suggestions?

Here's a quick way to check cam timing. Roll the engine over with the valve cover removed, and watch the #6 valves. When the #6 exhaust (last one in line) is fully open with the valve spring compressed all the way, keep turning, carefully, until the exhaust is almost closed and the intake rocker starts to move. At that point, the pointer in the window above the starter and the ball on the flywheel should be aligned, or very close to it. If the timing gears are even one tooth off, the overlap and the pointer/ball alignment won't even be close. You can also probe the #1 or the #6 cylinder spark plug hole with something soft like a soda straw or a zip-tie and feel for the piston to come to the top when the valve overlap position happens at the rocker arms. DO NOT use a screwdriver or anything else rigid for that test!

Edit: An out-of-time cam will cause some really oddball compression test readings. Have you checked the compression? On a fresh rebuild, compression pressure should be well over 100 PSI if the cranking speed is close to normal.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry. I haven't tested the compression, but I will tomorrow morning when I check the cam timing as per your instructions.
I do know that #1 blows my finger off when I get TDC!

Appreciate the help. At some point it's GOT to run....it was appraised for $44,000 today!

Jerry - when #6 is like this, is #1 at TDC?

When your thumb was blown off the hole, did you notice where the dist rotor was pointing? Sounds to me like the spark plug wires aren't in the right order.

Roy - I'm not a beginner at this. As I said, I timed it properly and have re-checked it 3x. At TDC the rotor points to the left when looking at engine. From there it's laced 1-5-3-6-2-4.

Yes, #6 and #1 are "companion cylinders" meaning that both pistons come to the top of the cylinder at the same time. The difference is the position of the valves. The #1 valves have been closed for almost the entire upstroke of the piston, creating compression, while the #6 piston has been pushing the burned gases out past the open exhaust valve. #6 is getting ready for its next intake stroke, so the intake valve is beginning to open. #1 gets the spark, and the burning gas is getting ready to push the piston down the cylinder on the power stroke. Both pistons are traveling the same direction at the same time, just on different strokes in the 4-stroke cycle. The other companion cylinder pairs are #2 and #5, and #3 and #4.

My students used to love my description of the 4-stroke cycle. Instead of having them memorize "Intake, Compression, Power and Exhaust", I called it "Suck, Squeeze, Bang and Blow!"

Jerry

That's what I thought (know). The 2nd time I checked for TDC, I even took the cover off and made sure, by seeing those valved like that and feeling that the pushrods on #1 where loose (both valves closed). Like I said, I've done this for a lot of years - this one is just screwing with me!!!

The last one I did, a Challenger, started on the second turn of the key!

Jerry - ya think I could have the shaft 180 out? If I turn the shaft 180, won't the rotor just point to the other side and I'd have to re-lace the wires?

How are you setting the static timing? With a point-type distributor, I turn the distributor housing clockwise until the points are closed (after getting the #1 cylinder to TDC) then turning it CCW until they just open. You can do it precisely with a 12 volt ice pick type test light by connecting the wire clip to a good ground and touching the (-) terminal of the coil with the ignition switch in the "run" poisition. With the points closed, the light will not burn. As soon as you turn the distributor housing CCW far enough to open the points, the light will come on.

If you've got a GM HEI ignition system, to do a static timing setting just turn the distributor housing to align the triangular projections on the reluctor and the ones on the pickup coil with each other with the timing marks aligned at the crankshaft. Good luck!
Jerry

Etek, you might also want to check the point resistance, which is how well the points 'ground' the coil. With the points closed, you should have very little resistance (less than 1-2 ohms) from the terminal on the distributor to the engine block. If this connection is not good, then the coil will not be able to build enough voltage to create a good spark and the excessive resistance could alter the spark's timing.

The distributor on my 51 has an external vacuum advance, that is, the vacuum advance can is stationary with the distributor base and turns the top of the distributor externally. There should be a small braided wire that connects the moving (rotating) part with the stationary base, providing a ground path. In more modern distributors, this small braided wire is under the base plate for the points

Yep, the engine doesn't care which piston gets the spark, as long as the valves are right. Your description of the pushrods being loose on #1 with the rotor pointed there is exactly right.

One other thought- - - -you are wiring the firing order in a clockwise direction- - - -right? That's the way the distributor is turning!
Jerry

I set the points first like Jerry described - to just open after TDC - which matched up to 0 on the dist hold-down.

And yes - all CW!

THEN (!) I did the resistance test as per Racecarl! Got 0 with points closed and 10,000+ when they JUST opened. Which matched the 0 on the dist hold down.

HOWEVER - I don't see a braided (or any) wire from the top to the bottom - never even heard of it or seen it in any schematics! This is the same set up as yours - you can see the dizzy cap turn when you choke the carb.

I'm going to bed. Tomorrow I'll check compression and the crank marks, then re-gap, re-check TDC, hang a gas source from the hood and try again....it'll either start - or leave as is!

The vacuum advance on some of the GM distributors has a small flat spring with a ball bearing trapped under it to provide a rolling ground for the moving housing. Others just rely on the contact of the distributor housing in the block for a ground.
Jerry

Jerry, thanks for bailing me out. I was too lazy to go out in the dark and look at my distributor. Since Etek was getting 0 ohms when the points were closed, my idea was eliminated. At least we are getting to the root of the problem.

One other thing I thought of was the point dwell, which should be between 32-36 degrees. This is just to verify correct point gap. Just to check things, hold the high voltage coil wire 3/8" to 1/2" from the block and crank the engine, making sure that the coil is putting out a good spark. Then put the coil wire back in the cap and pull each individual plug wire while cranking, verifying that each plug is getting a good spark.

OK I made a leap and clicked on your site. I've been gone from stovebolt for almost three hours. Great job on the 56 restoration.

Thank you sir! I've got a lot of interests, but resto would be my main one now....

Anyways, we finally got the thing RUNNING!! The owners SIL came over (trucker, all-around-good-guy) and I went through it all with him, changed the points to .19 (why not!) and then cranked it again. We got a little firing again, so this time he poured a LOT more gas in the carb. I was totally surprised it didn't just FLOOD, but it went off! It burned out the engine fogging [censored], which is likely why it was so hard to start.
Anyways, it ran for about 15 seconds while we poured gas in the carb, but it wouldn't suck fuel. Pulled the pump off and decided it needed new guts - so we left it at that for now.
Later on I took a bunch of photo's of the truck and my wife (ex-model), then the last box of small parts showed up from UPS.

Now I'll be able to finish off the fine details, get 'er running nice and give it back to the owner for Xmas - with some nice photo's to boot!

56 Chevy truck and Mrs E-tek

Thanks a LOT for your help boys - very much appreciated!

If y'all have a minute - check out my blog (link below). Just put up some shots of the 56 Chevy Truck and my wife, Mrs E-tek...