The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop ANOTHER 216/235 water pump question

I'll admit, I'm confused after reading a few days worth of posts.

Here's my problem - replacing my 216 with a 235. Keeping the 216 harmonic balancer, keeping the 6V generator.

WANTED to keep the 216 water pump, and use the relocation bracket, but it's leaking and the shaft / pulley has a lot of play.

I've read I can't rebuild the pump, can't buy the parts.

So do I want to buy another 216 pump or a 235 short shaft? Considering that I want to use the existing pulleys on the generator / balancer.

Mark

You can use the exiting balamcer and the 216 pump with the adapter. There is a place in Hamilton John Stuart that can rebuild your original pump. If you buy a new pump, you want one that is good to 1954 and it would probably be listed as a 235 pump. A pre 1955 pump will fit where the 216 pump fits.

By the way I used John Suart to sleeve and rebuild my rear cylinders and my master. They also rebuilt my steering box and it is filled with 80W90 with no leaks.

As I understand it, the reason behind relocating the water pump is it places it higher and closer to where the original 216 pump/fan combo were in relation to the radiator. That said, the use of the 235 water pump as it is on your 235 engine will locate it lower on the 216 radiator. Maybe that will be fine and worth a try. I relocated the pump in my current 261 and previously in my 235 with excellent cooling results.

Would the pre 55 pump have the correct diameter pulley?

Or are the pulleys removable / interchangable?

If I buy the the 235 pump, will I still have the rad clearance issue?

Drew - so the relocation bracket has nothing to do with clearance from the rad, just positioning on the rad, correct?

Fred - rebuild is an option - but want to make sure I know the options. What's the easiest route.

I see a pre 55 235 water pump in the swap section now for $35.

I think you want a pump that is new or rebuilt, at least that is the way I would do it. If you buy a pump that is made to fit your 216, it will probably be listed as fitting 235s (early ones) also. A new pump will have the same diameter pulley as your old 216 pump. If you look at your old water pump, there is a plate on the back. The adapter replaces that plate so you get the exact same rad clearance as before. The pump also sits exactly where the old 216 pump sat. Actually it is hard to tell the adapter from the original arrangement after it is installed.

Yes, that is correct.

To say it has nothing to do with fan clearance seems to miss the point.
The relocation plate puts the pump and fan in the stock position, when using a 1955-62 engine in a 1954 or earlier car/truck, so fan position and clearances are not an issue.

On a 1955-2nd series or newer engine, you would want a 1955-1st series or older water pump for use with the relocation plate.

Using the relocation plate gives you the correct distance from the fan blade to the radiator and relocates the water pump in the correct orientation/position relative to the radiator.

A 1955-2nd series water pump is the newer style water pump and it is not what you want. Be careful when/if you buy a 1955 water pump from a parts store - they could quite easily be the late 1955 and newer water pump (which does not work with the relocation plate).

One final complicating factor is not just the diameter of the pulley but also the fan belt groove size. 1953 through 1955-1st water pumps (on 1953 216 and 235 engines and on 1954/55-1st 235 and 261 engines) have a 3/8" belt groove. Earlier 216/235 belt groove size is 5/8".

Dave,

Is my statement incorrect about 1955-1st engines (55 in the engine serial number not 255) using the older style water pump and they would not need a relocation plate?

I'll delete these two posts if that is incorrect.

Thanks,

That is correct.

Tim, 1955 first does use the 1953-54 pump.
I usually leave 55 first series out of my posts because it confuses the discussion.

Ok - my replacement 235 block (3836233) translates to 1955 - 1957. I have the 54/55 Head (3835913) This would then classify as 2nd series engine, correct? If thats the case I'm looking for a 1955-1st series or older water pump for use with the relocation plate. The pump on my 216 would work in this case if it wasn't leaking.

Overall - I'm looking for a 55 1st series pump.

With the relocation plate you must use:
1941-52 for 5/8" belt.
1953-54 pass or 1953-55 first truck, for 3/8" belt.

You are correct about yours being a second series.

I don't know if you have seen my eBay listing, but it explains a little more.

I believe it is also possible to create an adapter plate similar to Pre '68 Dave's plate for the 41-55(ish) pumps to suit the earlier pumps (about 37 to 41) that have only one hole between the pump and block rather than two. I say that I believe it because I have built and installed a plate to do this but I have not run the engine using it to prove it truly works.
I wanted to use the older pump to make a closer match to the appearance of the 216 engines installed in Canadaian Military Pattern trucks. I also wanted to use the same bolt placements into the block as Dave's plate so that if my try turned out badly I could switch back to using his plate and the later pump but this made the clearance between body of the pump and the adapter quite tight in the area of the radiator hose connection to the pump where a bolt needs to go to secure the assembly to the block (just enough for the bolt head so that bolt has to be tightened slightly ahead of the others, clearance was helped by using a gasket between the pump and the plate and grinding an open end wrench to be thin enough to fit the gap). Another point to watch for on this is that one of the screws that threads into the lower part of the pump body needs to be a flathead like those at the top of the body to avoid interference between the bolt head and the block (unless you orient the bolt head so one flat sits against the edge of the water pump opening in the block, I chose to make all 4 screws theaded into the pump body flathead).
The pump is installed to the motor but I need to do some chassis work (brake lines and a new front crossmember to repair butchery by the PO) before putting the motor in the chassis to confirm that my water pump works as planned.

Grant! In Ottawa? What do you drive!?

Yes, another member of the board in the Ottawa area, I live in the east end. There is at least one more member and several other readers in the area.
My trucks aren't driveable yet but I own a small fleet (4 plus 2 extra chassis) of WW2 Chevrolet CMP trucks from 15cwt 4x4 to 60cwt 6x6. Enough to keep me out of trouble for years worth of restoration. Perhaps when I get the first one to drivable I'll have even less free time to work on the remainder. Either that, or I'll have so much fun that I'll push to get another one drivable to compare with the first.

Follow Dave's advice and everything will turn out great.I used his adapter plate on my 1956 passenger 235 engine in my 51 suburban,works great.He won't steer you wrong !!

Buy a new water pump,a used one will just cause you problems later.

Good Luck,
Tim

HI Mark

If you want to see and touch the adaptor set up come on over to the barn. we have two set up one completed one underway.

All you need is a new/rebuilt 216 pump....an adaptor plate..... drill and tap to do the extra hoel in the block... you will use all your existing old 216 pulleys....crank/pump/generator so everything should match.

Final product will riase the fan to where it should be..... and clear the rad quite nicely.

Don't be shy.... drop on by !!!

Bob

PS...Grant is one of the Hammond Barn guys....

I am in a similar situation, and rather than start another thread on the same subject, thought I would add it here to keep the info together (sorry for the hijack).

I recently had a 36 GMC with a 3837004 casting engine come in the shop for some "fit and finish" work. Part of this was to shim the front core support to get better hood gaps. As I'm quite accustomed to the domino effect, soon we realized the fan now had clearance issues to the lower radiator neck. Trimming the fan blades and 100 degree heat on his way home resulted in an overheat situation. I looks like the pump relocation and fan blade replacement will be the solution to this problem, and I have pointed the owner to Dave's ebay ad to purchase the relocation bracket. But I do still have a few questions.

1) As this is the engine the truck came with when he bought it, there is no donor harmonic balancer pully. What would be the correct pn and/or source to find a replacement to fit the 3837004 engine?

2) Fan recommendations....better off with a stock style replacement or aftermarket flex fan?

3) Radiator is still the non-pressurized version. As we plan on a recore, is now the time to convert to more modern pressurized system? I understand this will involve adapting a modern rad cap to the nice ornamental chrome factory piece.

Anything else I've missed?


Thanks! Btw, here is a thread (with pictures) that shows all the sorted details:

http://www.trifive.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63962

Beautiful truck!
Using my adapter will move the fan up to the center of the radiator so a stock length fan will fit, that will help a lot.
The only problem is the 1936 engine is about 1 1/2" longer then the 235 so with my set-up, on the 235, the fan will be to far back from the radiator.
There are no fan spacers available for the early pumps so you would need to make one or the other option would be to make a fan shroud for it.
I do not feel a pressurized system would be needed if every thing is set up right.
As far as balancers go you may be OK with the balancer you have, depending on the trucks rear end ratio and the type of driving conditions the truck will see.
I would also make sure the vacuum advance is working and the engine timing is set properly, that also has in effect on overheating.

Thanks for the response. I think the rear is a pretty high ratio, he said that at normal highway speeds (the posted limit) it is revved up pretty good. That's why we were looking at replacing the harmonic balancer also, to prevent from spinning up the water pump too fast.

Drill and tap eh? That's still required? I thought there was a setup where that wasn't needed.

I will take you up on the invite! Have a 4th girl just join us in the house - it's busy here, but I'd love to make it out before end of summer.

Mark,
what I would do if I were you, after your visit, use the front of your old 216 block to practise drill and tapping the holes.

Sounds like a great idea Fred.

I'll bring the thread up to the current day.
I have an about 52 235 in my 46 Chevy PU. Before I took it apart, the fan was about 1/4" away from the radiator. No skid marks on the radiator so it must be OK, tolerance and wiggle wise. Sent both the water pump and radiator off to sick bay. New radiator core, same tanks and mounting. Water pump being rebuilt at Egge. So clearances will probably be the same when reinstalled.

I have all the parts to install a Vintage Air condenser in front of radiator. Plenty of front space in the 46. Won't have to move the radiator but will have to fab some brackets.

Been getting differing opinions on whether to install a fan shroud. Currently it does not have one. But the added condenser adds heat load. I could fab a shroud or buy one and tweak it. There is some room in there, but not a lot.

1. Should I shroud or no shroud?

Second question is the fan blade. Currently it is a 17", 4 blade, 2" thick fan. that is about as big as will go in there. I found several online that had up to 7 blades, same diameter, same thickness.

2. Should I 4 blade or 7 blade?

It is going to tough changing belts without removing the radiator.

Any radiator shop worthy of the name can move the new core forward on the mounting flange an inch or so to give you more room to change belts. If you choose to fab up a shroud, be sure it only covers half the depth of the fan blades- - - -make the engine side of the shroud even with the fan hub where it bolts to the water pump. Fully enclosing the fan will actually REDUCE the air flow across the radiator core!
Jerry

I already have the radiator off. It was toast along with the water pump. Have the rad and the WP is being shipped to me today. Yea, once the fan belt is on and everything is assembled, they are THERE. At least I know what is involved to change a fan belt now.

So Mr. Lincoln, are you saying the "flat" part of the shroud should be toward the engine essentially flush with the base of the fan hub, and the flanges about 1" in toward the radiator? The fan is 2" thick. Should the shroud cover the total radiator area? I'm guessing about 1" clearance all around the fan for the shroud hole.

What about Q#2 above: Fan blades?

If you're a sheet metal artiste, you can make a cone-shaped shroud that covers as much of the radiator as possible and has a hole with about 3/4" of clearance from the fan blade tips. Too close, and you'll get some contact under high torque pulls from motor mount deflection- - - -trailer towing, steep hills with a full load in the bed, etc. If you're doing the "Cowboy Cadillac" thing and only hauling an iced-down Yeti cooler to the show and shine, you can get away with a bit closer clearance. Make the shroud from stainless steel or polished aluminum for the people who like the under hood area to look fancy, or flat black paint otherwise.

I prefer to just fab up a rectangular box that bolts to the core support with a hole for the fan. Either way, it helps the radiator pull all the air volume it can through the core.
Jerry