The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 1956 LCF 9200 Fifth-Wheel Trailer Questions

I am asking here because I am completely ignorant and I want other people's opinions. Any suggestions on what trailer I should buy? I want a trailer long enough to carry two vehicles nose to tail, with a flatbed deck as opposed to an open center deck to allow for more loading options. Would any old trailer fitting that description do the job? Or are there some special considerations I should be aware of in order to match the "best" possible trailer with this particular truck?

The truck is a 1956 LCF 9200 with air-over-hydraulic brakes, a 124" wheel-base, a 5-speed manual transmission, a two-speed rear axle and the original 322 cu. in. V8 Buick engine. The truck is a cab and chassis model set up as general purpose hauler. It has a fifth-wheel trailer hitch mounted on back and for visual reference, minus the trailer of course it would roughly resemble this old 1957 rig: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carhaul/5349602199/in/set-72157625787653314/lightbox/

Any suggestions on what I ought to look for in a trailer, where I should look for it and what I should expect to pay? Many thanks.



Jake

I assume you've got a commercial-type 5th. wheel, not the downsized type used on some RV's? If so, and the gross weight capacity of the tractor/trailer combination exceeds 25,000 pounds, you're going to need to have a Commercial Driver's License, and the truck and trailer will have to run commercial license plates unless it's registered as a farm vehicle in most states. I don'think hauling cars qualifies as transporting "farm" products. You'll also be required to meet federal commercial vehicle inspection standards. Before you get set up with a rig like that, let me suggest that you investigate the licensing and insurance cost of putting it on the road. Your wallet might yell "OUCH"! BTW, there's also a much stricter blood alcohol level threshold for people with a CDL at a DUI checkpoint, even when driving an automobile.
Jerry

Hy JakeCard, if you're looking for an old commercial semi trailer, you'll have to convert your trucks brakes to full air brakes to be compatable. A lot of older trailers have vacuum brakes with a "hand valve" in the truck to actuate them [they do not come on with the truck brakes]. The modern gooseneck fifth wheel trailers will have a choice in brakes, some will be electric brakes, which would be fairly simple to fit a controller into your truck for, but those trailers are going to be expensive. As Hotrod Lincoln said, there are legal considerations when operating a rig like that, if you were thinking of insuring it as an antique/special interest/collector vehicle, then I would contact your insurer and see if that is even possible for your truck hauling a load. Hope that helps.

Good information there and I will look into all of it. Thank you 3B and Jerry.

I haven't physically take possession of the truck yet, (though I am trying to learn all I can ahead of time) but yes, I think the fifth-wheel hitch is the "commercial" type. As for a required CDL, and someone will correct me if I am wrong, my understanding is that the weight threshold for that license is 26,001 lbs. on the tow vehicle? This particular truck has a 25,000 G.V.W.R. Its cab and chassis curb weight is 6,170 lbs. according to the 1956 Chevrolet specification book. So add in whatever the hitch and rear wheel-well sheet metal weighs and estimating high I am guessing the truck alone weighs no more than 8,000 lbs. total. If that number is accurate, then that would leave 17,000 lbs. of payload capacity to work with between the weight of the trailer and the weight of the load in order to stay within the truck's designed limits. Does that logic sound right?

Edited to add: The truck is intended entirely for my own use. I have no commercial interest.

Thanks again,


Jake

WOW !, Another Heavy Duty 9000 series Chevy LCF. You don't see these often(Mike B on this site has one). I've always wanted one myself(I've had 5000 series '55-'57 Medium Duty LCF's). Can't wait to see a picture of it.

E-mail sent, Spanky.


Jake

They are a collectors item, and the 322 Buick is indeed a rarity. However, unless your state allows some kind of antique vehicle registration, it will be classified as a commercial vehicle. It is the gross combination weight, not the gross vehicle weight that determines if it is a commercial vehicle. The GCW of this unit was well over the 26,001 breaking point. The only 5th wheel of that era that can still be rebuilt is a Fontaine. All the other 5th wheels of that era are obsolete. Fontaine used the same internal parts from WWII until about the mid 90's. It is indeed a collector's item, but before you get too deeply involved find out about insurance, a cdl and registration.

Here I ask for opinions on the best trailer to buy and what I get is a "come to Jesus" awakening on insurance restrictions, CDL requirements, obsolete parts, registration costs and DUI checkpoints!

Thank you all. This is very encouraging.


Jake

It's better to know up front that the project you have in mind might get expensive. I can relate from personal experience that a roadside inspection by a commercial vehicle enforcement officer can be a traumatic experience. It's even more so if you've got the wrong kind of driver's license. I was a heavy haul wrecker driver when the nationwide CDL law went into effect, and we got lots of calls to tow a rig to our storage lot while the driver went to jail for having an improper driver's license. One of those incidents involved a trailer load of cattle from a farm two states away. Once the driver got bailed out by his boss, I dove the rig to the state line, and the driver followed me in my pickup. He took over again once we were out of Tennessee. I hope he made it to his destination!
Jerry

If the vehicle has a 5th wheel and air over, it is tractor equipped. That means it will pull any trailer with air brakes that was built in the past 75 years. There is no such thing as matching a trailer to a tractor. My first truck tractor was similar to what you describe.

https://picasaweb.google.com/crenwelgeoil/MyFirstTruckTactor#5518103013237507570

I used it to pull a tanker to haul gasoline, a flatbed to haul hay and a grain trailer to haul grain. The rated gcw on it was about 55,000. I later added a drag axle and grossed 80,000.

Now that's what I am talking about. Sweet tractor and excellent information, Kenneth. Thank you!

How do you calculate G.C.W.?



Jake

It is usually on the ID tag on the door jamb. Legally you can carry 20,000 on a single axle, 34,000 on a tandem all across the us. Some states allow more. So to calculate your actual allowable gross combination weight is add the allowable on your drive and the allowable on your trailer to the actual weight you get on your steering axle. When these trucks were built, 18k on a single axle and 32k on a tandem was the maximum in most states.

Jake,

Your 1956 9200 has a GCW of 42,000 pounds. The 322 engine puts out 195 hp at 4000 rpm and 310 pounds of torque at 2200 rpm.

Your optional Air Over Hydraulic Brakes were RPO-413 and added $259.90 to the cost of the truck new.

The front tires could be 9.00 or 10.00 and the rear could have been 9.00, 10,00 or 11.00 all on 6-lug 22.5" Budd wheels.

The 2-speed rear rated at 18,000 pounds has a 6.50/8.87 ratio which should net you about 60 mph. I cruise along at about 62-65 mph in my 1957 Fire Engine with the 322 and a 6.14/8.36 2-speed with the rpm about 3500.

I have a 1957 9200 with the 322 and a Powermatic 6-speed automatic (Allison) transmission. It's a future restouation project. I'm in the middle of a '56 3100 for the wife to drive and then I'm doing a '56 4400 Mini Pumper Brush Truck w/ NAPCO front axle, then the 9200.

Please send me pictures of your truck!

Take care...

Mike B

That is some outstanding information all around, Mike. Thank you! The photo I e-mailed to you is the only one I have of the truck so far. I'll be sure to send you more photos as soon as I receive the truck.

In a conversation last night with the guy who is selling me the truck I learned a few more things. The truck has power steering. The carburetor is a four-barrel. He still has the original but replaced it with an Edlebrock. There is no external gas tank so I will be stopping frequently for gas. Based on his description of the shift-pattern the transmission is a Spicer instead of a New Process. The fifth-wheel hitch is definitely the commercial type. But the truck is also set up with a ball/receiver type hitch as well. He drove the truck on the road last week and while he says after eight-months of sitting that the brakes worked just fine ("will lock'em up with the air-brakes if you're not careful") he did have to add brake fluid first. So it sounds like I'll have to chase down some wheel-cylinder kits. And the speedometer has quit.

I definitely have a lot to learn on this one. Thank you all for your help!


Cheers,

Jake

Jake,

Power Steering was either a $120 or $195 dollar option depending on which Generator you got.

The 2-speed rear cost $400 extra...

The 4 barrel carb in increases the HP to 210 and torque to 320!

Your fuel tank should be the larger 21.5 gallon while the smaller trucks had 17.5. At about 6 mpg you'll be stopping for fuel every 2 hours which is about when your body will be screaming for a break as well (I speak from experience).

The Spicer 5-speed was the optional HD trans.

New Wheel Cylindars are still available from NAPA.

Your truck is loaded with goodies...Deluxe Cab, Air Over Hydraulic Brakes, HD Trans, Power Steering, Chrome bumper & Grille Bar, etc. Was this a Fire Truck at some time in it's life?

Mike B

More excellent information there, Mike. Thank you again!

I don't know the complete history of the truck but I do hope to find out more. The guy I am buying it from says he purchased the truck from a trucking company which used the truck for years to move semi-trailers from one side of their yard to the other. Judging by the truck's overall condition he seems to think it never saw a tremendous amount of road use, or if it did it was certainly well cared for. In my novice view I can't imagine, nor can I see any visual signs that the truck was ever configured as a fire truck, but I am always willing to be wrong about anything. My guess is just that whoever ordered the truck from Chevrolet had some extra cash on hand and wanted to be seen in a puller that had more than average style! With its shear size, shiny chrome everywhere and wrap around rear window the truck surely would have gained some attention even in an era when the roads were full of big metal and chrome. Although from a functional perspective too I suppose its heavy duty mechanical add-ons and driveability options would have given the original purchaser a little something else to brag about as well? All conjecture I know, but whatever the case, as the guy I am buying it from says, "It's just a really cool old truck."

Thank you again for all the input.



Jake

I don't think it was a fire truck because in those days, fire trucks didn't have air over. They didn't want to wait to build up air pressure. Now larger fire equipment has straight air, but they keep them hooked up to a regulated air line to maintain 120 psi.

For the purpose of a truck tractor, the air over and 2 speed was a must. I never cared for the big window because it was a magnifying glass in the Texas sun. The shade between the door and the back window was the only cool spot in the cab. It is quite likely it was ordered by an owner operator or a small fleet because then as now, drivers liked chrome.

Jake,

Here's a couple of rays of sunshine for you .. possibly...

I run a 1972 GMC 9500 road tractor. It's insured as an antique/collector vehicle with Gulfway Insurance (they're listed in out Links section. It has a commercial 5th wheel, but it also has a gooseneck 2 5/16 ball on it that I usual hook my 20-ft g/n flat trailer to so I can haul another truck to shows, etc. Even loaded with Grigg's diesel conversion truck, I'm still easily below 26k. And because Maryland issued me a title for an antique vehicle rather than a semi tractor, I can still use the Antique plates.

So, even though the DOT regs are confusing, and not evenly enforced or even interpreted from state to state, I'm told (but can not confirm yet) that as long as I'm under 26k, not using the commercial 5th wheel and have antique tags, I am fine without the CDL (should have the medical card, as anyone should, for vehicles over 10k I think). Again, this is anecdotal but it sounds good

I ran 700 miles to the ATHS National in this configuration and went through several scale houses and didn't get stopped once (doesn't mean that I won't, just saying on that one run, they took a look at me and decided I was okay).

My point is to consider a different hitch from the commercial 5th wheel to stay out of commercial vehicle territory. Maybe using a g/n hitch and trailer would do it? There are some pretty beefy g/n flat trailers on the market.

Both Mike B and Crenwelge know my truck and can comment on this as well.

To see my g/n hitch in action on the ride home from So. Bend, Check out this short video clip (The background music in that video is a 6-71 Detroit at 2300 RPM, foot on the floorboard )

Hope this is food for thought.

Regards,
John

Thank you, John, for your words of encouragement and for the links to your big truck. I like it!

I have a lot yet to sort out with this old truck and I am only just beginning. But with a little persistence, maybe some creative licensing and the help of good folks here I am sure it will all come together in the end. I have looked into the gooseneck option and I think that it makes good sense, i.e., to use a "common-sized" trailer big enough to get the job done as opposed to a commercial-sized trailer so conspicuous and bulky that it automatically puts me on the scales or gets me pulled over. Thank you for the suggestions!

Cheers,

Jake

Jake,
I'll throw in my .02. You can get a dual tandem gooseneck that has a GVW of over 20k lbs. While that is good if you need it, at least in SC that puts you in CDL territory, even if you are pulling it with a one ton. We had a nice conversation with a DOT enforcement officer one afternoon about ours. We have farm tags on our one ton so there was nothing he could legally say. Still spent about an hour getting all that straight. Moral of the story, we painted over the "10 ton" graphic on that trailer, and you might want to keep that in mind when you go trailer shopping.

Antique trucks that fall into the commercial vehicle class by definition (over 26001 cross combination weight) are a gray area in most states. I think that your first step should be to go to your department of motor vehicles or whoever does licensing in your state and find out if there is a provision for antique registration in your state. I would suggest asking different people the same question. You will probably will get different answers. Getting the thing registered as an antique can be a big hurdle in some states. If you can get antique registration like John has on his GMC, you can probably get reasonable insurance. Being a member of an organization like the ATHS is helpful in obtaining antique insurance.

The discussion assumes you will only be using the truck in non commercial applications, just to be clear you have no intention of hauling for profit right?

Why, do you need something hauled?

Just kidding. You are correct, I have no desire to use the truck for profit.



Jake

The only real answer to the CDL question is to contact your states DMV....this may not help when you cross state lines though.

Here in Ohio a CDL is not required regardless of weight or size so long as you are strictly non-commercial use. Commercial use would include helping a friend move and having them buy your gas for the move...or lunch...or a twinkie as a thank you. Any profit no matter how small makes it commercial use and would require the CDL.

Also a trailer over 10,000lb requires a CDL....farm license often have exceptions....but then they also are very restricted in their use... i.e. for farm use only. My 18' Cronkhite bumper pull trailer is rated at 12,000lb so technically I should have a CDL if I use it for any profit. It looks about the same as any typical car trailer unless you know what it is.

I do not see how using the commercial 5th wheel would make a difference. Nearly any gooseneck trailer is already in CDL range anyway.

Just make sure you do your own research for the license you will need and what your insurance will allow you to do. The collector insurance companies restrict use a lot.... pleading ignorance won't help when they say you aren't covered due to what you were doing.

Good luck
Tad

Tad -- Good points. To clarify, I was referring to the plates at that point. At least here in MD (may be the same in other states), apparently the new rule is that road tractors (defined as such by having a 5th wheel) are now ineligible for antique plates no matter what year they are or intended use. The loophole *might* be to just remove the 5th wheel and install a g/n hitch instead. A friend in Virginia has the exact same truck I do and he got VA antique plates by removing the 5th wheel, adding a small flatbed. Why couldn't you also add g/n hitch? Technically, it's a flatbed (and eligible for an antique plate).

Weight, of course, is an entirely different matter and there's no getting around it we have yet found in the research.

The advice to call the state DMV/DOT/MVA is good, but we've found here in Maryland that even at the commercial licensing division, the answer you get varies widely from individual to individual, and even with the same person from day to day. So I'm wondering if they even know themselves? If you roll across the scales and get stopped for inspection, but you have a well-restored or maintained vehicle with no faults, antique tags, proper insurance, you're under 26k and you're hauling your own stuff ... what will they really be able to say -- "Have a nice day?"

AS a note: I put on my Stovebolt Editor hat and spoke about this issue with the ATHS leadership at South Bend and they are working on it with SEMA to try and get some clarification on the laws/regs for antique commercial vehicles. Until then, it's probably going to be a grey area as Crenwelge says -- with no clear or uniform guidance. If anyone does try to get some advice from their DOT, see if you can get it in writing -- especially if it's in our favor.

Good discussion. Keep it going.

John

Research about licensing as an RV, you then don't need a CDL. And no scales either. I noticed that some folks are getting class 8 trucks and licensing them as rv's as the sleeper has a bed sink, stove, toilet etc.

Here in Oklahoma I've seen the OCC (our DOT cops) pull over a 1 ton with firewood on a trailer. They're cracking down on lighter trucks that need DOT numbers, logs, medical card etc. even if they're too light to require a CDL. Pretty much anything with dual rear wheels, especially with a trailer is rated over 10K so there you go. The only way out of it is to be a farmer or register it as an RV. It's pretty hard to prove you're not using a truck for some form of commerce. A lot of oilfield companies around here are downgrading from one tons to three quarter tons so their mechanics, pumpers etc. don't have to meet DOT criteria.