Most people who pull a trailer that size use a 1-ton chassis with dual rear wheels and a big V-8, 454 or larger. You'll need a massive upgrade of the brake system, and it's highly unlikely the 235 or the 283 would move the trailer above 1st.-gear speed. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
The whole Apache (1/2 or 3/4 ton) platform is not up to the task. IMHO, even with the biggest brakes and torque monster V8, the chassis/wheelbase, etc is just too "light duty" to be effective so safely haul the weight and length you are talking about.
To keep it "retro", Maybe a body swap to a later model 1 Ton chassis....?
Would anyone like to hazard a guess as to what engine is under that hood? My guess is that is NOT a 454. (That would be a 216 Splasher from the Factory BTW) I'll further venture that a loaded tanker weighs more than a 28 foot camper! It's all about the gearing. The frame may or not be up to the task as you say. But there is no reason that a small V8 or a straight Six can't haul the mail. They did it for decades before diesels became the norm. I think a Gear Vendors should be on your shopping list though.
Agree with Jerry -- engines are one thing, but the brakes have to be considered, too. The original braking system is NOT up to the task.
K10 -- Sure, they overloaded their under-powered vehicles back in the day. They also used to cross the Pacific Ocean in dug out canoes -- it was unsafe then and it's unsafe now.
Bottom line (and official view of Stovebolt.com) is that driving in modern traffic with an under-powered, under-braked and over-loaded vehicle is unsafe (to yourself as well as to other motorists) and inadviseable.
V/R John
~ John
A kid raised on Hotwheels, Matchbox and Tonka cannot be reasonably expected to own only one vehicle as an adult.
1949 Chevrolet 3804 In the Legacy Gallery | In the Gallery Forum 1973 IH 1310 Dump 1963 Kaiser M38A1 2001 International/AmTran RE3000 "Skoolie" 2014 Ford E-350 4x4 (Quigley)
Yep, I know a little about overloaded trucks- - - - - -my grandfather was hauling beer from Milwaukee and St. Louis to Nashville on 33 and 34 Chevy tractor-trailer rigs after Prohibition was repealed, as well as running a fleet of coal and ice delivery trucks, and a few dump trucks on runway construction jobs during WW II. The beer haulers had mechanical brakes on the tractors, and NO brakes on the trailers! One particular hill in Kentucky was a favorite spot for the local sheriff to set up his portable truck scales. If a truck had to go down to granny gear to make the hill he would stop it at the top and weigh it for an overload. The 33 model rig would out-pull the 34, so it got the overload. They sent the legally-loaded rig struggling up the hill first, pulling hard, and while it was getting weighed, the overload sailed by in second gear! BTW, this was long before the days of auxiliary transmissions- - - -they did it all with crash box 4-speeds and really low-ratio rear end gears! Jerry
Last edited by Hotrod Lincoln; 04/11/20119:35 PM.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
All that hauling was not done at the speeds they drive today. That is the only way those motors managed to do the job, very slowly. I have a road map for my area from 1956 and the top speed limit as stated on the map was 50 mph.
Maybe some people here are a bit extreme, I think... one does not need a Kenworth to tow a 28ft trailer! It depends on a few things. A 28ft trailer is not that big, a modern half-ton could tow that. How heavy is that trailer, will you be loading it with Clydesdales? Also, if you plan on towing in interior BC, in the mountains, that will not work well anyway... But then again, if you are going to a campground 200km away for the week-end in southern Ontario or the prairie, it is much easier... A 235 is clearly too small, lacking the power and torque; a 283 V8 is better and could very well be enough (remember all the trucks from the eighties running 305ci engines?...); but then, why stop at a 283? Go for a 350/383, plenty of pulling power that you can dress up as a period engine too! Better yet, if you are willing to go small block, then get a modern LS engine, the ones found in modern trucks: even a 5.3 litre (about 327ci) will get you 300 reliable HP... Then, you need a 4 speed trans with a cooler, and the proper rear end ratio. Of course, you will need better brakes, at this point a front clip with power steering and power disc brakes seems like a good idea; while you are at it, get a modern rear end that will give you better drum brakes, or maybe even swap discs at the rear too? This should make a perfectly good tow truck that can live in modern traffic safely and reliably, looking good doing it! And if you notice you need more stability at the rear, why not widen the rear fenders and get a dually axle? Indeed, this is not very stock anymore, but this could be a very cool stock-looking truck!
The east kootenays so i'm pretty much in the mountains unless I head east into Alberta but then there is the wind. Those are some really good suggestions, now if I can win the lottery!!!!
I do not agree with putting a clip or subframe suspension and then towing with that rig. If you are using a MII suspension or the like, the truck is no longer capable of working a load.
I believe a 1/2 ton would likely be too light duty for the job in stock form. I would not even consider a load like this with a short wheelbase truck. Brakes will be key. My 59 gmc 1/2 ton longbed tips the scale at 4500lbs. A 1/2 ton shortbed gmc is listed at 3350lbs. I would expect a heavier tow vehicle would be better than lighter one.
I'd suggest a Dodge 1-ton dually with a Cummins turbo Diesel for your trailer-towing chores, and a more period-correct buildup on the stovebolt, possibly a 235 or a 261 for cruising around the neighborhood. The Come-along will get better fuel mileage under load than a fire-breathing gasoline V-8, also. Jerry
Last edited by Hotrod Lincoln; 04/12/20114:08 AM.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
There we go! Yes. Let's do that. Get a Dodge. Why not a ford or Nissan. After all, this is the Stovebolt page. Maybe have a truck just for show. And a another one for driving to work. And then another one for towing. Economically, it's a great time for that. But seriously folks, maybe it's the trailer that should go. Get yourself a nice Scotty Highlander and tow it with your STOVEBOLT, and have a good time. http://img1.classistatic.com/cps/po/110208/935r4/3966b4e_27.jpeg
Well I guess you have some thinking to do now... I am in Alberta and here, you see many people towing big trailers with fairly "small" modern trucks, because it is pretty much all flat! And it is not always windy either! Nice project/idea, I hope you pursue it! And I hope the suggestion of a 1-ton dually diesel was a joke, has anyone ever heard about overkill? Being reasonable and having a good understanding of one's needs is an important part of a project, and Parisenne certainly does not need that kind of vehicle! It is just a 28ft fifth-wheel! About the front clip, yes, a Mustang 2 is a bit light, but properly done (good welder needed!), a front clip (mid-size Chev, or even 1/2 ton truck from the '80s) can only be an improvement, it gives better ride/brakes/suspension/steering, everything! I would also like to mention the importance of the weight (and also the height) of the trailer. Some time ago, I had asked on this forum about the towing capacity of my '57 Suburban (250ci inline 6 engine): the answers ranged from zero to comfortably 7000lbs!... So, Parisenne, maybe you could ask the trailer manufacturer's recommendation; you could also look at new trucks (quick trip to the Chev dealership) and see what a 1/2 ton with the small engine can tow... Also, do not underestimate the power of the after-market: heavier springs, gas/air shocks, anti-sway bars, it is all there!
I agree 100% with the dually suggestion. A 5th wheel puts all the load right on the rear axle, dual wheels will give a stable base to spread the load on, plus the safety of having 4 tires on the axle shoudl one blow out. As far as clipping goes, passenger car brakes are still passenger car brakes, not rated for heavy towing. Same goes for 1/2 ton brakes. Compare them to 1 ton, or even 3/4 ton brakes. Realy, most 1/2 ton brakes up to the late '90s aren't much beefier than their passenger car counterparts, in some cases, the parts interhcnage ('88-'98 C 1500 compared to the '89-'94 Caprice/Impala for example). Here's something else not touched on, tires. the standard 4 ply tire (P rated or B range in a modern radial) would be grossly overloaded, especially with a 5th wheel. Plulled plenty of them off that were worn out or blown out from being overloaded. You would want at least a C range (6 ply) or higher, depending on what size you're running. 15" are pretty much limited to a C range these days, you'll need at least a 16" to get a D (8 ply) or E (10 ply) tire. Better to go overkill and be safe.
The Diesel dually suggestion was only a little in jest. If I were planning to tow a 5th. wheel travel trailer, that's precisely what I'd choose, and after over 40 years of towing all manner of camper rigs, race car trailers, construction and farm equipment, and 18-wheelers, I think I can speak from experience. GM doesn't make anything, gas or Diesel, that can run with the turbo Cummins on a power vs. fuel economy comparison, certainly not the Chevy/GMC V-8 Diesel.
A properly set up modern 3/4 ton truck with heavy duty tires would be the bare minimum I'd consider for the job at hand, or a shortened-wheelbase 1-ton stovebolt with V-8 power and completely modernized running gear and disc brakes all around, if there's some reason to go with an older-looking truck. I pulled a 22-foot Norris bumper-hitch camper behind a 59 Burb many years ago, and even with a 307 V-8, a SM-420 4-speed, and a Dana type 60 rear axle with 3.78:1 gears, it was underpowered and dangerous. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Well I got lots of options it seems,the next thought I had after the cerfluffle about the dually was to get a Sparten and work from there. I would still have a cool old bolt but it should pull a trailer,now all I have to do is convince the wife and of course find one. Thanks guys this has been great!!!!!!
I have made a living running Cummins Diesels for over 40 years. My Current favorite is the ISM set at 370 HP, 1450 ft. lbs of torque. However I have never had a real urge to have a Diesel pickup, even though I have a cousin that sells Dodge and Duramax. My current pickup is an 09 2500 HD with a 6 liter gas with single rears. I am currently cleaning out my salvage yard, and have hauled as much as 9,000 lbs on a bumper pull trailer and I can't imagine a Diesel doing any better. However, I would never consider putting one of these engines in a pulling rig for a camper. A 383 stroker would probably be an easier swap, because it would fit easier. But to modify the brakes, suspension, insulate the cab, etc. would be a long term project. A 28" trailer catches a lot of wind, and a 235 or 283 would be completely gutless. I would fix up the 58 to ride around in and buy a modern pickup to pull the camper.
Much of the discussion above deals with heavy duty towing. What are the views on the limitations for towing with a '58 longbed Apache 283 cu. in. that's stock except for a power brake booster? I was thinking of using mine for towing a 7,000 lb. car trailer (probably with electric brakes). I'm planning on getting new shocks soon anyway- any recommendations if I'm going that route?
Since 10% of the trailer's gross weight needs to be on the hitch, (700 lbs. when loaded) you'll need a Valley Tow-Rite or a Reese weight-transfer hitch. A sway control would be another strong reccomendation if I were setting you up in my shop. You will have far too much tongue weight to use a standard bumper-pull hitch, even one that's tied into the frame. Don't even consider pulling that kind of weight with a regular bumper mount. When you change the shocks, a switch to air assisted shocks would be good, but don't use them to raise a rear end sag when the trailer is connected. When the load-leveler hitch is installed and set up right, the vehicle should squat evenly front and rear when the trailer is hooked up. Trailer brakes will be a must-have situation, not an option. If you don't have a 4-speed transmission (SM-420 or equivalent), get one. The 3-speed will not be up to pulling the load, and you'll need the very low-geared 1st. speed to get started on hills without roasting the clutch. If it's got a Powerglide or a Hydramatic, forget the whole idea of trailer towing. 283's have very low torque, depending on high RPM to develop power, so you'll need to keep it wound up around 3,000 RPM for anything but level-ground cruising. Pulling 7K is doable, but you're going to have the engine working near its design limits. Be sure it's well built, and keep an eye on the connecting rod bearings. Unless it's running a fairly fresh rebuild, expect rod bearing problems sooner rather than later. An oil cooler might be a good idea, also. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
How about swapping the cummins into the 58! Sometimes I dream of droppin a longbed apache on a modern 3/4 or 1 ton frame with a Cummins. That would be cool. And, it's an inline!
Jerry, thanks for the input. You've given me a bit to think about.
Longbed, I like the idea of the Cummins but I think I'm too much of a purist especially since my '58 is very clean and solid. On the "TRUCKS" TV show, they dropped a crew cab longbed of a "different brand" truck onto a modern pickup frame with its diesel drive train. I wish they had used a Chevy or GMC instead of what they chose but it was pretty cool anyway.
I towed my 55 Chevy on a dovetail trailer with a 95 longbed 1/2 ton F150 with the 300 six cylinder, mazda 5 speed (yuck)and 2.75 gears to a Day of the Drags in Temple from San Antonio. 3 hour drive. That was work, not fun. The event was fun!
Parisenne, Is that a 28' RV trailer? Do you know what it weighs, or what the GVW rating is? There should be a label on it somewhere with that info, or with the axle ratings. Some of the contributors may be thinking that it's heavier than it really is. I know my folks pulled a 28' 5th wheel with an 88 GMC 1/2-ton with a 350 for years - all over the Ozarks. Of course there is lots of difference between an 88 and a 58. Whatever you do, do it safely.
Thanks for the feedback. My '58 longbed Apache with a 283 has the original rear end gearing (I think) but a manual 3 speed plus granny gear in a transmission from a mid-60's C-10. The truck doesn't want to go over about 60 mph.
What driveline modfications would make sense to be able to cruise comfortably at 65 mph (without a trailer) but still have towing capabilities? The easier and cheaper the better.
Steve - a "3 speed plus granny gear" is called a 4 speed around here and a mid-60's 4 speed will be identical to a '58 4 speed - the trans will have no effect on top speed, they're all 1:1 high gear unless you find an overdrive trans, which will improve things - the other possibility is to change the rear gears to the 3.38 instead of the original 3.90, IF you have a 1/2T, but if you can't get over 60 with the 283 I'd guess you have a 3/4T with the 4.57 gearing
Bill, "4-speed" sounds better; I wasn't sure what to call it, thanks for straightening me out:) The truck can do over 60 but it's just not comfortable cruising at that speed.
Longbed, I'll do some research about an NV 5-speed.
Steve - the "comfort" can't be improved much, these ol trucks are noisy at speed regardless and the brakes are retro-tech that you need to make allowance for, especially when towing - 283's don't mind cruising at high RPMs, so don't think that hearing it wound out is worrisome, I cruise mine at 65-70 with the stock 3.90 rear and 3 speed, only thing that bothers me is the noise, and that's mostly road and wind noise and dual exhaust
that said, any overdrive trans will drop highway RPM nicely and still allow good pulling power for towing
I'm been trying to find some info on NV 5-speeds. Any advice on which one to pick and what donor trucks may have them? Is the NV3500 a better choice than the NV4500? Are they easy bolt-ins? I've read that I should avoid the 92-94 NV3500's since they had problems.
Stay away from the NV3500, they're not really made for heavy truck usage. Most of the applications that they're found in are compact trucks and light duty 1/2 tons. If you were to that route, a T5 would be a better choice, as well as an easier bolt in (I would not advise it for towing, either).
Those pics make my point pretty eloquently. There's 3 inches of daylight beteween the top of the front tires and the fender flares, and the rear end is squatted down like a hound dog passing a peach pit. How much weight does there seem to be on the front wheels in case of a panic stop or a need to make a sudden swerve to avoid a rock or a big rig tire tread in the road ahead? There are weight equalizing hitches that avoid the tongue load problems, and let's hope all those trailers are set up with brakes and an adjustable controller. Towing heavy loads any other way is just plain irresponsible, and dangerous to yourself and everyone else who has to share the road with you. Jerry
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
Those pics make my point pretty eloquently. There's 3 inches of daylight beteween the top of the front tires and the fender flares, and the rear end is squatted down like a hound dog passing a peach pit. How much weight does there seem to be on the front wheels in case of a panic stop or a need to make a sudden swerve to avoid a rock or a big rig tire tread in the road ahead? There are weight equalizing hitches that avoid the tongue load problems, and let's hope all those trailers are set up with brakes and an adjustable controller. Towing heavy loads any other way is just plain irresponsible, and dangerous to yourself and everyone else who has to share the road with you. Jerry
Well jerry, shouldn’t one claiming to be such an expert and calling others irresponsible do a bit of research beforehand?
Here’s a pic unloaded. Kind of looks like it’s “passing a peach pit” anyway, doesn’t it.
There was a friend of mine towing a camp trailer with a Jeep. He had equalizer hitch and anti sway devices and all worked well. One day he was traveling down hill on a turn and hit a bump in the road. Lost control of the rig and crashed into another car, killing his wife and the driver of the other car. The investigation showed that bump caused an oscillation between the trailer and the Jeep with the equalizer hitch resulting in the trailer weight lifting the rear wheels of the Jeep off the ground which made the Jeep impossible to steer. The towing vehicle was too light and too short of a wheel base to handle the trailer. I have pulled trailers, boats, campers, etc. I will not tow anything unless the tow vehicle is rated to handle the weight safely. Remember that all the water, gas, people etc can add lots of tow weight and hitch weight and can easily overload the rig. Use the right tow vehicle designed for the load and conditions. Taking chances can be fatal. Better safe than sorry. Thanks for listening.
"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak and eliminate all doubt!" - Abraham Lincoln Cringe and wail in fear, Eloi- - - - -we Morlocks are on the hunt! There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self. - Ernest Hemingway Love your enemies and drive 'em nuts!
There was a friend of mine towing a camp trailer with a Jeep. He had equalizer hitch and anti sway devices and all worked well. One day he was traveling down hill on a turn and hit a bump in the road. Lost control of the rig and crashed into another car, killing his wife and the driver of the other car. The investigation showed that bump caused an oscillation between the trailer and the Jeep with the equalizer hitch resulting in the trailer weight lifting the rear wheels of the Jeep off the ground which made the Jeep impossible to steer. The towing vehicle was too light and too short of a wheel base to handle the trailer. I have pulled trailers, boats, campers, etc. I will not tow anything unless the tow vehicle is rated to handle the weight safely. Remember that all the water, gas, people etc can add lots of tow weight and hitch weight and can easily overload the rig. Use the right tow vehicle designed for the load and conditions. Taking chances can be fatal. Better safe than sorry. Thanks for listening.
Truer word have not been spoken always use a tow vehicle that is rated for what you are towing
Notice a lot of folks kicking the I6 out as an option.
IMHO the inline 6 will out pull a v8 any day. Way more torque. And a lot stronger a bottom end. You will not find a new semi truck with a V8. All of them run a I6. Diesel yes but inline.
But V8 has been an american thing for a long time so I dont blame you for going with a V8. Just have to spend money to make the bottom end as strong.
I guess to each his own.
Here is a 58 Apache Napco with a cummins I6 in it. Cool
and a mid-60's 4 speed will be identical to a '58 4 speed - the trans will have no effect on top speed, they're all 1:1 high gear unless you find an overdrive trans, which will improve things - the other possibility is to change the rear gears to the 3.38 instead of the original 3.90, IF you have a 1/2T, but if you can't get over 60 with the 283 I'd guess you have a 3/4T with the 4.57 gearing