The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 6 cyl, ran 3 min, siezed

any ideas? I had engine rebuilt, was stored undercover outside for 4 months until ready to start, did "correct things" like run oil pump with drill motor til oil out rockers, was priming carb with gas trying to get fuel pump primed, engine was running fine -good oil pressure for 20-30 seconds at a time til carb ran dry, this went on for 6-8 times and engine stopped like usual, out of gas, primed carb final time, won't turn over, thought put to much gas in carb, hydrolocked it, pulled plugs and boroscoped cylinders, no gas, no sign of flash rust on cylinder walls possibly siezing rings. engine locked solid. possible fuel pump pushrod siezed?, camshaft sprocket fragged?
tryed resoline in cylinders, tapping block every few days, still locked solid, may have to pull engine and pull off oilpan and inspect for spun bearing but want to try all options/ideas first.
hope I'm doing this right, 1st time posting as newbie, you can see truck on March additions/Gallery. Thanks Dave. :confused:

Hy 1958GMCnut, I'm very sorry that you're having to go through this. I think you're on the right track though, I think it's pan off and find what's locked time, good luck, and please keep us posted.

Thanks 3B, Further info was, it was rebuilt a # of years ago, tryed running it 4 mo. afterwards, I know it needs a fuelpump, but the usual stuff(buying house, new wife, newer kids) got in the way. It has been stored inside since then, and have just got a line on a 54 235 running condition i'm trying to get as back up if something is Terminally wrong. this will hopefully give me a kick in the backside to get the 'bolt drivable and finish the Box, or just run with a Mint cab and leperous box.

I was warned by the machine shop owner that rebuilt the engine in my truck that the ad on oil filter was a problem on first start. He said the filter would accumulate a lot of oil initially and delay oil getting to the rear main bearing which would cause it to "spin" and lock up.
meansam

I know of an engine that was rebuilt by a reputable professional machine shop. All the right things were done as far as assembly and startup. It ran fine for a few minutes than locked up when shut off and would not turn again.

The reason was seized wrist pins in the pistons. The engine builder said it is a possibility even when you think all the clearances are OK. Sounds to me like things were just a few tenths of a thousandth to tight.

You describe exactly what happened to the engine I saw.

Agree with Meansam...you've starved something critical. You didn't mention if you were running the bypass filter, but if you didn't prefill it prior to cranking, it could be your culprit, diverting just enough oil to the filter/housing (path of least resistance) to starve the bearings.

I recently plugged the 2 bypass filter lines and was amazed at how much more oil pressure was noted in the main oil gallery. Makes me question the rationale for running this type filter on a high mileage engine. Think I'd rather forego the pressure-robbing filter, and just change the oil more frequently.

In addition, priming the carb "6 or 8 times" didn't help the top end of your rebuild or add any life to your cam/lifters with 20-30 seconds running times.

Sure hope I'm wrong (for your sake) but you won't know until you pull a cap, and even if you don't find any damage down in the lower end there are cam bearings up above that can't be as easily checked. I know this isn't going to help you with your problem, but it might explain how it all came about.

Dave

W/O pulling the pan, we are all just guessing in the dark. If the engine has sat w/o running, rust is very possible. Old engines can sit unused, as oil has penetrated everything. But a rebuild has been cleaned & tanked, everything is dry, dry, dry-the only lube is where the builder put it, & after so long it is prolly gone, dripped down into the pan. Priming the oil pump does little to lube essential parts if the engine is not rotated during the priming process. Losta folks miss that. My guess is a wrist pin or a rod bearing. My $.02,,Brian

1958GMCnut,

I haven't been laughed out of the forum for awhile (to my knowledge), so here goes. How are you determining that the engine is 'locked up'. Are you using a bar on the ring gear or a big old socket somewhere...or are you relying on what the starter is telling you when it won't turn the engine over!

I am not at all familiar with a '58 GMC, but have serious doubts about a wrist pin seizing up and stopping the engine. I wouldn't even put this theory on my list of top 100 possibilities.

Until I used a BF-BAR to verify the engine was locked tighter than a bulls you know what, I would keep searching for other things. If you are relying on the starter for this diagnosis, it might not be right.

Stuart

When I was at the Ford place, a fairly new truck came in that had been to a coupla shops/dealers-all said the engine was locked up. Pulled the starter & the engine would turn fine. The starter had jammed in the engaged position, locking the flywheel. A new starter & away it went. On the other hand, I have also seen frozen wristpins(more than one) lock an engine. Brian

Wrist pins were not something I had even considered until I saw it happen.
I still think it should be a rare occurrence when they lock up an engine, and should only happen to fresh rebuilds if it does.
Grigg

Thanks Guys, the comments give me something more to think about, more further info is: the bypass oil filter was not on the truck as I needed the oil lines, the starter question: the old '58 has a foot pedal application starter the bendix engages first then the starter spins, no starter binding, I used a
couple of bolts in the harmonic balancer and a bf* bar to try to turn over both directions-no dice-
there isn't a ft crank bolt as is a press fit. camshaft should have oil as when I used drill to drive oil pump shaft the pathway for the oil is: pan,pump,main brgs,cam brgs,lifters,pushrods,rockers. and had oil at all rockers before distibutor install,valvecover and start. The conrod/piston pin siezing I didn't think of, also didn't try to remove fuelpump to see if pushrod/pump siezed. Hopefully will get the
1954 235 that is a runner advertised locally this weekend as a spare if my original suffered catastrophic failure. My main problem is stupidity
on storing outside undercover and waiting to long to try to turn it over--Machine shop went out of business--Wunder why? :mad:

Sorry you're having so much trouble. I just picked up my rebuilt 261 last week and I won't be installing it till summer at least. It has a by pass oil filter. Hopefully I can learn from this ahead of time and not have too much trouble. Leo

Can you get any movement at the crank? If not, something in the main bearings are locked up. May even want to look at the clutch, you never know. If it move just a little then I would presume something in the rods or a siezed piston would be at fault.
Good luck tracking it down,
Scott

Sorry you are having this problem and "I can feel your pain". Your story makes me dread the day I fuel my '57 235 up and crank it, which is just around the corner. Let us know what you finally figure out and good luck!

Is it a good idea to not have the external two line bypass filter then to increase oil flow pressure? Especially for a non daily driver, like a restored weekend summer truck where the engine oil can be changed often? Obviously this was not 1958GMCNUT's problem but it raises the question.

i found out the hard way to you should have pulled the plugs shot oil in the cyls. and i run an oil gas mix 24 to 1 on the first tank for extra lube i had one freeze up on me once it wont happen again

My suggestion for first start is that it would be better to have the external oil filter completely out of the picture by plugging the supply line. The oil that flows into it is lost for the moment as far as lubricating anything. It merely tumbles back into the oil pan sump.
For an old loose engine, the oil pressure available to lube the engine may be severely depleted since the filter provides a parallel path back to the oil pan that does nothing other than perhaps a little cleaning.
meansam

all this talk about overhauled engines makes me nervous, mine has been sitting for about two months and will be about two more before i get it back from the body shop to have the engine installed. :oh well: i guess i will just have to wait and see. it is in a heated garage. and the person that has it is a experienced hot rodder. ron

we b old - new rebuild - mine has sat for 6 months .............i feel your nerves .........i will know in the next couple of weeks tho .

New update: I just aquired a 235 out of a '54 chev with a fourspeed, am planning to pull the siezed engine and teardown to find out what the He** went wrong and will Post my findings, Thanks for all the suggestions Guys

think you guys are nervous, mines been in the shop a year, unheated. hopefully i'll have her fired up in the next few months. i can only go as fast as money allows.

Some caution and some advice from experience.
First to "53 Panel" with the 261...... make darn sure your 261 is not a full flow oil filter..... if you run it without a connecting filter or temporary bypass line you will fry our engine in a few minute.

I had a 261 re built by a reputable shop..... when I got it home it had pipe plugs installed in both oil openings beloe the manifold..... when I questioned them about it turned out that an older gentelmen had done the reassembly a a young chap finished the job and plugged the galley holes.

An engine in storage should be over filled with good motor oil that you will drain and replace before starting the first time. Oil galleys should be primed with an electric drill at least quaterly. Plugs should be removed and the engine spun by the starter while the oil is being primed. I installed a manual oil pressure gauge on mine and recorded 42 pounds whiel driven with a 3/8 HD drill...... engine turned very easily with the starter...... Caution with the plugs removed the plug holes will spit out excess oil right in your face while holding the drill ...one more caution.... on the distributor side..... above near the edge of the head just below the valve cover.... you have two bolt holes menat to hold the distributor coil...... make sure you have bolts in them little suckers because as the valleys fill inside the valve cover they will leak beautiful clean oil all over the side.....

Prime and spin every 3 months while in storage and it will minimize problems later..... don't foreget to squirt more oil inside the plug holes before reinstalling the plugs ....actually after spending $3k to rebuild it is cheap insurance.

Bob C.

uhuh same situation over here on the other side of the Atlantic.

Got 4 weeks to go for the first fire and 6 months since rebuild.

Defcon5 :rolleyes:

Frank

Unfortunately, I suggest a teardown. Go in stages, because if you find it, you may be able to correct that one problem, depending on what it is.

I don't think a complete rebuild will be necessary again, because I don't believe there's any metal in the oil. It never had a chance to spin a bearing while the engine was running.

But first, you have to take the starter out anyway to change the motor. So take the darn thing out and see if your motor will turn...just a hunch.

I think I'd probably start by checking out the bearings. Main and rod. Plastigauge them while you're at it to make sure the clearances are within spec. I'd do the mains first, and then get the caps back on if that looks good.
Next, I'd do the rod bearings. But I would take them loose one at a time and try and pry the crank to see if it moves. You might just find the single culprit this way, and if it turns out to be one of the connecting rods or piston wrist pin, then fix that one thing and put it back together. Each time a connecting rod is removed from around the crank, see if you can move that back and forth in its bore. If you can, the wrist pin is not seized.

If you get down to all the rods taken off, plastigauged, and put back on, and you still can't turn the crank, then maybe start looking at the cam. These stovebolts have direct gear-driven cams. It might not hurt to make sure some errant piece of foreign object or metal did not get stuck in the cam gear and stop it from turning. A stupid little thing like that would do it. You could check that first if you'd like, just to eliminate doing the rest of the motor.

Good luck. My 235 runs great, right up until one of the cylinders gets too much water in it to run anymore. It's cracked. So I'm going through a motor change too.

A disclaimer. CHECK YOUR OIL FIRST. If it's all metallic, then you probably had a catastrophic failure and you are talking about a rebuild then. I would drain the oil before I did any of the above, and see what that looks like. If the oil's clean and clear, then you know the engine's salvageable...as soon as you find the problem.

This is why I never paint myself into a corner: IE, never let a fresh engine sit more than 3 months.

This is also why I use the engine assy lube on the wrist pins, bearings, timing chain, etc. The engine assy lube and the heavy cam lobe lube won't run off the engine parts in a few months. Ditto for use of WD-40 and 30wt during piston/ring installation. I also fog the inside of the crankcase with WD-40 to prevent flash rusting while sitting on the stand.

I try not to let a fresh engine sit, and I try not to turn it over very much. Turning a fresh engine over a lot will wipe the break-in lube off the lobes.

Was this engine really hot when it seized? Was the oil pressure really high? I once built a '54 235 with the main bearings too tight. The oil pressure was off the 60 psi scale, and the engine boiled over in a few minutes. That was all she wrote, the main bearings were toast.

I've heard of a 235 that was rebuilt, and stored in a workshop. Unfortunately, the frame was sandblasted in the same workshop. Guess what ruined the bearings?

Thanks for all the info guys, to refresh the info:
It sat outside undercover for 4 months while I was finishing the frame, it was Nov-Mar. I drill drove the oil pump until oil flowed out of the rockers. static timed the motor added a bit of gas to the carb trying to prime a fuel pump, (that I now know is dead), I started right up, ran for 30 seconds and died (with good oil pressure on the guage), I went thru the process of doing this 3-4 times trying to get it to run on a jury riggrd fuelcan downstream of the pump and each time it stopped when the carb ran dry. The next time on attempt to start it wouldn't turn over, pulled plugs suspecting hydrolock, no excess fuel, boroscoped each cylinder suspecting flash rust jamming rings, but bores ok. The machine shop that assembled the short block is no longer in business, so it sits in a dry garage 6-7 years til now. I have bought a 1954 chev. 235 cid as a spare if there is anything
terminal on the original motor. I hopefully will be installing a hoist next month and plan to pull the pan to see whats wrong, I don't think the starter is the problem as it is a footpedal actuated starter, my best guess is a timing gear problem, cam/crank/rod bearing or siezed wrist pin. also the bypass oil filter was not hooked up as the hoses were missing and engine ran fine before the rebuild. when I find out what is wrong
(soon!) you gentlemen will be the first to Know.
Thanks again for all the input, Dave

My shop teacher taught me the 4 strokes are:
Suck,Squeeze,Bang, Blow :p

When you first fired the motor,was she tight sounding? On the second and third try did it sound the same...or tighter? Why I ask ive seen
engines run for a few min. without oil,and because you PreOiled the engine it should have ran
longer. Ive seen Hydrolock in boat engines,damage
was "Bent valves&bent rods" I doubt you poured that much fuel into it. (pull dip stick and look at oil/sniff...do you smell gas?) If you smell gas
a bad fuelpump could fill the block up and "Wash the bearings"
Does the crank have any in-play now?
Here my guess.....something has come loose and has jammed the works up. Now the good ole redneck
cure would be a 6' pipe and break her loose,or throw a chain around her and pull her down the road and pop the clutch! (Yes this has worked for me on the farm)
And last question...did anyone look at the oil
Pressure when she fired up?
Ive also let rebuilt engines sit outside under a tarp for 2-3 years...no problems.

Good luck
Wick

EUREKA!!!I FOUND THE PROBLEM????
Today I pulled the 235 out of the truck that was rebuilt a long time ago, but never ran, It ran 3 minutes with good oil pressure with gas being fed into the carb to prime fuel pump, engine slowed down
and stopped--LOCKED UP TIGHT! Pulled oilpan to find...#5 conrod bearing scored 3/4 way around with a Piece of Castiron burr embeded into the crank journal, Crank was Balanced and balanced grinding areas have burrs, I suspect a piece of cast iron went thru the oil pump into the oil gallery and stopped at #5 conrod shell. :mad:
As machine shop no longer in existance, I will try
to clean up crank burr, replace conrod shells, reinstall with crossed fingers and hope for the best.. otherwise it means a re/re of the crank for
further machining and cleaning....Any suggestions
would be appreciated. Dave

If the bearing is scored, plan on pulling the crank and at least that rod to have them both reconditioned. Sounds like that oil hole stopped up is why it did that. The crank may not have been as clean inside as it should have been. So a piece of trash worked it's way to blocking that oil hole.

Glad to hear you discovered the problem...sorry to hear you've had to go through so much turmoil to get your engine cranked.

A couple things I've noted on the intitial cranking of a rebuild.....first of all....and probably most critical, especially when running in a flat tappet cam, is to make sure that the engine is ready to run for at least 10-15 continuous minutes while you monitor oil pressure and engine temperature carefully. Overheating during run-in can cause you all kinds of grief!

This means that the block should be full of water. By removing the thermostat, adding coolant, and then reinstalling, you can make sure that it isn't going to need "burping". Get your static timing set and make sure you have fire to the plugs. Save the new HEI and dual carbs for after you get your initial run-in completed. I like to crank a rebuild, with a carb that I know is working well and a tried and true fuel pump. A new fuel pump, carb, plugs and points aren't a guarantee that it will run! Pre-oiling and observing oil from the top of the engine is a must. Once you've got the initial run-in, you can fine tune timing, carbs and fix the little glitches that pop up. Taking a little extra time BEFORE you throw the fire to it, will pay off over the life of the engine.

To me, letting a fresh rebuild sit for a month or two isn't a real great idea. Why not plan your project where you get all your ducks in a row with the body and running gear and then schedule your engine rebuild so that it can be dropped in immediately after the rebuild and you'll be ready to roll. This has worked well for me, maybe it might be something to consider on your next project. That's just my $.03!!!

Dave

Let me strongly suggest you pull the crank, and run a rifle cleaning brass brush through all the oil passages. It sounds like a piece of debris was trapped in an oil hole, and the oil pressure pushed it to the rod bearing. There might be more trash lurking in there, waiting to lock it up again. I saw a very expensive race engine ruined by a mud wasp nest in one crankshaft oil hole, after the crank was left in the corner of the shop for a few days prior to assembly.

Even better would be a full teardown, and a trip to someone with a pressure washer, or even the local coin car wash, where you blow out ALL the oil passages in the block. That's a routine part of every engine job I do, even to the point of knocking plugs out of the ends of the passages so I can run a brush down every oil gallery. it's amazing how much crud can come out of a "clean" oil gallery when a tight-fitting brush goes through it!
Jerry

I second the motion to completely disassemble and properly clean the engine and passages.
Even if it does not lock up next time you know the engine was put together somewhat dirty. If you don't clean the whole thing now you are asking for a short lived engine.

Grigg

OH OH.....
I was preparing to put in my replacement bearing shell and found what looks like a crack in the oil hole in line with the burr gouge!!
I guess it going to the machine shop for magnafluxing to see if I'm right...DAM*
I guess the spare motor's going in for now...
If it can't be repaired, My parts truck may have a doner crank, As The engine's a #'s matching to the truck I would like to keep the original engine(never
mind its just been rebuilt/balanced/blueprinted) :mad: :mad: :hammering: :hammering:

yuppers , dry bearing will get ya every time ...been there ...know your pain .

Well, I dropped in my spare 235, It runs, some minor
issues like miss in engine, hard start, fuel pump leak. will replace fuel pump, reset point gap, set timing with timing light-suspect too far advanced.
Will fix this and put an exhaust on before driving too far....Will drop off old engine at machineshop to Magna flux crank this week...Hope it's not serious or my parts truck will be missing a crank.
I will post with results later.

Found the cause of the miss, dwell was 23 Degrees, should be 38-45', fixed the fuel pump, timing dead on after dwell reset. engine now purrs and growls with no exhaust. have to wireup some lights and off to the exhaust shop I go. I will wait til fall to get the crank checked out.