The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Head troubles again

If I had hair I would be pulling it out.

I cannot seem to get the settings right on my new 235.

There is still something going on with the head. Still looks like something is leaking out of the gasket line. Something that looks like oil.air as it is in tiny bubbles

I pulled the manifold today to check for vacuum leaks since I can only get about 16 out of it and it surges at high rpms unless I advance the timing about 10 degrees.

I readjusted the valves (again) after normalizing and low and behold I got 21 lbs of vacuum at 500 rpm. I set the timing at top dead center and managed to have the vacuum (19lbs), timing(TDC) and idle (500 rpms)all where I wanted them.

Went for a ride and the surging was back. Checked the vacuum and it was back to about 16.

If the head gasket was defective could that cause a vacuum leak?

I can hear a puffing noise in the manifold when I rev up and release the throttle. When I reseated the manifold and that did not help I assumed it was due to valve adjustment.

Last time I adjusted the valves the puffing stopped and the vacuum was 21. But that did not last.

If I set the timing advance so that I get 18-19 lbs of vacuum runs pretty good and has power but not much more than my 60 year old 216.

Anyone got any ideas?

Is it a standard manifold (with hot box) ?

yes

Ya think the box is leaking?

The puffing in the manifold is irregular leading me to think valves.
Last time I adjusted the valves they were a little louder but they quieted down over a few minutes. They are hydraulic

Is this the block that was retrofitted with hydraulic lifters? If so, was the block drilled for them to oil? If not, this could be your problem.

I think it's time that you cash in your warranty! Let the mechanic do a little research for you. As far as vacuum leaks have you checked the line to the windshield wipers? This one is often overlooked.

GMONIZ,
Thanks for the Swap Meet info. Maybe we'll get a chance to meet on Aug. 11 at the Arco Arena
Normbc9

I am going to put my new carb on this week and bring the truck in to the shop for a warrantee repair

The vacuum line to the wipers is the only one I have. That is where I connect the gauge

The needle on the gauge shakes like the guide are loose ... This is really disappointing

Rich

If you hear noise from the carb, puffing like you said, its most likely valve adjustment again. Having never worked on a 235, but plenty of other engines, it sounds like the adjusting nuts are not staying tight or the studs in the head are pulling out. A jumping needle on the vacuum gauge means something is wrong with the valves. Don't bother with the new carb till you get this figured out, you don't want to add a problem on top of one already.

Joe

Double check that the block is indeed drilled for the hydraulic lifters. If not, and he didn't drill it (not sure if you can) then you may need to go to a solid lifter/cam set up to cure your ails.

The block number will tell if it is late enough.

My bet is the block isn't drilled for hydraulics, and this is what is giving you trouble.

I agree everything points to the valves and of course valve adjustment is my weakest skill.

However If anything leaks on the head gasket (like the coolant leak I had or the oil that leaked on it durn the valve adjustment it bubbles like air is escaping. I woudl think this needs to be addressed.

Where can I find information on the drilling of the block for hydraulics? I know he siad he does this all the time but he could have made a mistake.
The block numbers indicate it si a 1954 235. I don't kno w where to find any further information.

Replacing the cam is not fun but might be the easiest solution since I did not want hydraulics to begin with.

Thoughts?
Rich

Oh and I don't want to pay for a new cam kit or the labor ro replace it.

He should warranty that if he put the wrong parts in.

I dont know how you are adjusting them but Try adjusting the valves with about .005 in. lash. If the lifters are not settle ing in this will compensate for it. If it is leaking out the edges of the head gasket & someone just worked on it they should make it good. If its comeing from the cooling system a can of Bars Leaks will fix it.

It is definitely leaking out of the head. I originally though it was leaking antifreeze but that turned out to be a weeping regulator on the water pump.

I just started the engine tonight and put a little mystery oil along the head gasket and voila...bubbles. in a few spots. I think it is leaking compression through here.

I am bringing it back to the shop on Thursday or Friday. He guaranteed he would fix it and make it run right even if they have to take the head off and redo the gasket and then they will make all the fine adjustments for me.

I am keeping my fingers crossed it will only be the shop 1 or 2 days.

Rich

If this is the engine that I've been reading about for the last few days that was a 235 truck block that had the hydralic lifters installed I don't see how it can be expected to run correctly when it's impossible to pump up the lifters.
If your trying to adjust the lifters according to the hydralic specs and there taint no oil there to pump them up then all its gonna do is distroy the valves eventually not to mention the cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers.
That block is not set up to supply oil to the lifters unless it's had some major changes made to it. Before I turned the key one more time I would get hold of the guy that did the machine work on the engine and ask him; Did you modify the block to supply oil to the lifters?????? and get a difinitive YES it has been modified for that, from him.
I don't see how an freshly rebuilt engine could possibly have this much wrong with it.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

If it is truly a 54 engine, only the pass, with Power Glide trans, would be drilled for oil to the lifters.
1958-62 blocks are all drilled, whether hydraulics were used or not.

I will let you all know once I get this back to the shop

How do the solid lifters get oil if the block is not drilled? The cam and lifters still need lubed, guess I don't understand 235's.

Joe

There are different "avenues" of lubrication of lifters on different years of 235s (1941-1963).

And, as stated above, there might be different "avenues" of lubrication of lifters in the same years, depending on the year of the block and if the block was set up for hydraulic or mechanical (solid) lifters.

From around 1958 and upwards, car and truck blocks were all set up for hydraulic lifters, even though all truck 235s/261s came with solid/mechanical lifters. From 1956 onwards, all 235 car blocks had hydraulic lifters. From 1950-1955(?), 235 car blocks had hydraulic lifters if the car was equipped with a Powerglide transmission.

I do not know if truck blocks had specific lifter-lubrication passages prior to 1958 - maybe in some years the oil dripping down the drain holes in the head onto the lifters/push-rods provided sufficient lubrication to the lifters?

Please correct/clarify the above, if necessary.

Correct Tim, the lifters were oiled from the top from the oil returning to the lifter gallery from the head and from the bottom the cam/lifter was splash oiled.
DG

I dropped the truck off this am

The machinist said the block was definitely drilled for hydraulics or he would no have put them in.

The first thing he said was "where did that carb come from" It is the one from the 216. He said the engine will only run as good as its accessories. I know that carb is a pos but it is the only one I have.

The head bubbling he said might be chemical. He said there is no oil or coolant leaking and there is no combustion on that side of the head so it is not compression leak (besides it is a slow steady bubbling I would think a compression leak would pulse and increase when the engine is revved up. He said it is likely something bubbling off the gasket. He will clean it up and check it out.

He did hear the vacuum leak in the manifold likely coming form the valves So he will adjust them and see where we go.

Anyone got a 54 235 carb they want to part with?


More to come

Is the manifold off your old 216?

If you go with a 235 carb you will need a 235 manifold
To bolt it to.

I'm running a 216 manifold/carb on a 235.

Thats the part I don't understand, oil dripping on lifters would not be enough to lube them and the cam would it? There had to be some sort of oil galley going to the lifters. Anyway thanks for the information, Joe.

I don't understand how the 216 carburetor was mounted on the 235. The bolts on the 235 manifold would be at a different spacing. Now if the 216 manifold was used, then there is another problem mating it to the 235. So which combination did you use?

Well Joe one might not think that oil splashing up onto the cylinder walls and wrist pins would be enough to lube the pistons, but it is!
If you were to pull the side cover right after shutting down your engine you’d find a lot of oil in the lifter gallery. And as I said there is a virtual oil cloud in the crankcase when the engine is running at speed.

DG

Update.

The carb is form the 216 and the manifold is from the 235. The carb mount has elongated bolt holes so it fits both.

The block is drilled for hydraulic lifters. Probably Chevy sold a lot of trucks that month and instead of waiting around to build more blocks they just used the passenger car blocks and stamped them with truck numbers. We have all opened up something form a by gone era only to find not what we were expecting.

He pressurized the block and voila...the gasket is no good! He took the head off and ordered a new gasket. It should be ready next week.

Now I don't feel so incompetent that I could not get this to run right.

Looking for a 235 carb now

What kind of carb is on there now? Never saw a dual engine carb.Did somone modify the carb base?I've got two Mod.B Rochesters for 235, both are rebuilt ready to go.

Pete

Pete,

I don't know if someone customized this base, It was on the 216 when I bought the truck.

I found a rochester b for a 235 on the Holley site. Remaned at the Holley factory for a very good price with no shipping cost.

Thanks anyway for the thought

Rich

BTW I saw the truck today with the head off...the gasket never compressed. It was as smooth and flat as when they put it in.

I should have the carb and the truck back on Wednesday

Rich

Rust bucket, here's a link to interpreteting vacuum gauge readings.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

YAR,
Thanks...that is a cool tool. My vac gauge has a paper representation that is similar but not as detailed ...very cool
Rich

Picked up the truck today
It runs like a top. New head gasket and valve adjustment as well as a fine tuning of the carb and timing.
I am noticing more power but not as much as I thought I would. By estimates of folks who know...on this site and others. The old 216 should have been producing only about 40 to 50 HP at its ripe old age. It seems I have only about 20% more power with my new 235 which should be close to 100 HP. I expected about 50% increase in power.

I think one of 3 things is going on (or a combo of the 3)
1. the old 216 was not that bad
2 the new 235 is not that good
3 there is something dragging on the truck that is robbing power ie a brake or wheel bearing.

There is no noise. The engine and running gear are smooth and quiet. I will check the brake adjustment (the truck stops really good...maybe too good)

I will also check compression timing and put my new rochester b carb on.

Should I check the fuel pump...how do I check the pressure on the pump...what should it be?

Is there any other common power suck problems. I know I have low gear ratio (4:10) so I don't expect high speed. I just thought that I would get from 25 to 50 much quicker than I can.

Maybe I expect too much?
Thoughts

It took some professional help to get it running fairly well the first time- - - - -are you really sure you want to second-guess their work on the off chance you might make it run a little better? Jack up one wheel at a time, and see if the brakes are dragging. I'd think long and hard before tinkering with an engine that's been fine-tuned by a professional shop in hopes that you're going to wave a magic wand and make it all better.
Jerry

I think your expectations are in error. If you have good reliable power than that is the best result you can expect. A 235 will give more torque but the difference from a 216 is not massive.

Jerry
My issue is that others who have done this swap have described the difference as night and day between the 216 and the 235. This is more like night and dusk. Not a dramatic improvement for the money.

The last thing I want to do is tinker with the engine. It runs good. I want to check compression to be sure the head gasket is ok and I have good even compression. If a new head gasket was bad once it could happen again. The previous head gasket had a very subtle leak. If I had not dripped some coolant on the seam and seen bubbles of air escaping I might never have found it.

Also the carb on there is from the 216...might not be enough to feed the 235.
I have a newly remanufactured rochester b that is the correct carb for this engine.

The wheels are not dragging. I checked them tonight.

Remember the professional tuning started with replacing a defective head gasket. I don't think anyone could have gotten this engine running right with a leaking head gasket.

As I said maybe I am expecting too much. The old 216 might not have been that bad off ... it might be that this is all due to low gearing and old technology.

Rich

truckernix
You are quite possible right. The engine runs good and the truck is more fun to drive.

I may need to adjust my expectations. I may be paranoid but I still want to check the compression. I don't want to take chances with my warrantee.

Rich

The 216 was pretty consistent in horsepower rating from 1940 to 53, at around 90 HP. The 2nd.-generation 235's from 54-62 had HP ratings from 115 to 135, with the higher power rating due to an increase in compression and a slighty different camshaft profile. The 235 also has noticeably better torque due to the longer stroke crankshaft, resulting in less need to downshift, but not a great deal of top-end speed difference. The carb swap will let you run more RPM at full throttle, but I don't think you'll see a lot of change in the low-RPM to midrange performance. If you decide to swap carbs, use the vacuum gauge to get the idle mixture adjusted correctly. It won't make any difference in off-idle performance, but it will make it run smoother at low speed.
Jerry

Thanks Jerry

I do notice more torque (mostly on the hills) and was not expecting more top end speed (60 to 65 is plenty of speed for this old truck and its lack of safety features)

I figure the right carb cannot hurt. I can always revert if I have issue but I don't expect any.

Thanks for the tips
Rich

Are you using the 216 intake manifold? I thought the bolt spacing was different for a 216 and a 235 carb.