The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 235 seized?

Hey, I just bought a 1953 3100 with a 235 in it. It has been sitting for ten year but the owner said he was able to drive it to that spot before "trying" to restore it. Anyways, I have been messing with the engine now and im not sure if its seized or if I should be doing something different because its been sitting. Im not able to turn the crank. I have heard of some people putting marvel mystery oil in each cylinder but im not sure if it would help in my case. This is my first "old" truck and im just not sure of the next step. Thanks

Take the plugs out and give give them pistons a good soaking with Marvel it will help if they are stuck and if there not it will lube the pistons and the cly. walls so it will be easyer to turn her over,I always soak with marvel and change the oil and add 1 qt. marvel with the oil before I try and turn the engine by hand if all seems OK I'll crank it over with the starter but no plugs if it still seems OK try and start ,thats after new plugs, points,condenser are installed.


Pete

Ok, Ill give that a try. Is there any specific way to turn it by hand other than using a spanner wrench on the crank pulley? Normally there is a nut there that you can use but there is not on this engine. Thanks for the advice

Here is a test I did a while back that may or may not be of help.
https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...p;Words=kroil&Search=true#Post215167

You might want to try a flat screwdriver on the flywheel starter gear. You get lots of leverage there and might get the engine turning that way when nothing else works.

I picked a 49' 3600 last summer with a 56' 235 in it. Hadn't ran since the mid 70's. Was sitting in a barn in Kansas all this time. I pulled the plugs, soaked the cylinders with penetrating oil and then put a crow bar end into the hand crank hole with a pipe wrench on it. Smacked the pipe wrench with a small sledge hammer and she broke loose. Did all of the usual, changed oil, filter, plugs, cap, rotor, points, plug wires, rebuilt carb.....by end of a weekend she was purring like a kitten.

This board has heard of people towing the truck around in gear until it breaks lose, or jacking up the rear wheels, putting it in gear, and rocking the wheels back and forth.

Towing it in gear scares the heck out of me, personally. Just feels like you might do some damage. The wheel rocking idea makes some sense to me, since I've never been comfortable prying on the ring gear with a pry-bar (makes me nervous).

Ultimately, the best advice is, don't be in too big a hurry. Give the lubricants some time to work, keep putting a little pressure on the crank, both directions, from time to time. Maybe three times a day, get in the habit of working on it some. It'll come lose eventually, and your patience will pay off in less damage done.

My two cents, anyway . . .

-Michael

When you get the motor loose and before attempting to start don't forget to prime the oil-pump.
To do this make sure there is enough clean oil in the engine.Remove the distributor.Insert a power tool driven screwdriver blade and turn the pump to make sure oil pressure builds up and also that fresh oil reaches your rockers.
Jianis

Pull the valve cover and spray down the valves really good too. "Lightly" tap the top of the valve (not the rocker arm) to see if the valves are loos in the guides. I swear by KROIL for a penetrant. I would break the motor loose and be able to turn it over by hand before using the starter to turn the engine. Put in 1/2 Dextron II and 1/2 engine oil to prime it and get it started on. The detergent in the tranny lube will help and also soften the seals a bit. I don't drive the vehicle with the tranny oil, but I run it til hot and without loads. I think it helps loosen up rings too.

i too would suspect the valves first. i have freed up many old and i mean old tractor engines i tap the rockers with a ball peen
hammer a solid sound means the cam is lifting the valve a ping sound means a good loose valve and a thud sound is a stuck valve. i soak my engines with a mixture of oil be it marvel or just motor oil and some sort of solvent acetone or paint reducer once i get it to move i go back and forth a little at a time until i get a full rotation this helps prevent crud from breaking the rings. if it has just been sitting and no rain in the engined an old rope seal engine will run again if you are persistent.

Youngin, of all the topics that come up on these forums this one is the most amusing to me. The responses to your question invariably range from "Get tough with it and it'll break loose, especially if you use Marvel mystery Oil" to "If that engine is seized there's a problem and only disasssembly and inspection will reveal the problem".

I'll keep my opinion to myself.

Marvel oil is OK, but this stuff is better:

www.kanolabs.com

If you're anywhere near Nashville, go to Thompson Lane and buy a quart or a gallon of Kroil and soak the cylinders and valve guides with some of it. Two ounces or so in each cylinder will penetrate even solid-rusted rings and end up in the crankcase after soaking a few days. Remove the starter, put a pry bar on the flywheel teeth, and give it a good pull. The crankshaft should turn.
Jerry

I would try elevating one rear wheel, putting the truck in high gear and trying to turn the wheel. You get the advantage of a large wheel diameter to work with.

When I purchased my 1954 261 engine,it had a mouse nest in the clutch,pressure plate and flywheel area.The nest would not allow the engine to turn over,that was a mess.It's amazing what they make there nest out of.


Tim

I had a I6 lock up one time cause it ran with low oil. So I put trans fluid in the cylinders. Let it set for one day and it cranked over. I fixed the oil leak and the thing was still running the last I saw it a few years ago. Smoked a little, But it ran. Just a good story. Mistery oil is what I do most the time. Good luck.

If none of the above fixes work, then there's only one more thing to do:

The "Siezed Engine Dance".

(Remember this must ALWAYS be done during a full moon, with 14cents in your right front pocket and a glass of rum in your left hand)

Good Luck.

Thanks for all of the advice guys, I have marvel mystery oil in the cylinders now, just giving it some time to do it thing... also waiting for all of this snow to leave so I can get out there and work on it haha

I got the engine broke free yesterday Now, I am able to do full rotations by hand, but with the valve cover off, none of the rocker arms or valves move. Does this mean my valves are stuck? Or do they not start moving until its started? Thanks, Cody

Well there are only a few possibilities. If the distributor is not moving then the timing gear is probably broken. If the distributor is moving, either all the valves are stuck open or you have a combination of bent pushrods and pushrods out of place. It will not start with no valves mobving.

Ok, how can I check the distributor to see if its moving?

You can take the distributor cap off and rotate the engine like you have been,the rotor should be rotating.

Itr sounds like you've got a stripped timing gear. Take the fuel pump off, look through the hole with a flashlight, and see if the camshaft turns as you turn the crankshaft.
Jerry

A stripped timing gear could be the lesser of the ailments. Let's hope for that one!

Ok, thats what I was thinking but wanted to be sure since im unfamiliar with older engines.

If the timing gear is stripped, how are you supposed to get the crank pulley off... isn't it pressed on there?

the timing gear is on the end of the camshaft, driven by a gear on the crankshaft, the timing gear is made of a type of fiber. the crank gear is metal, the crank pulley/harmonic balancer is a press fit on, there is a puller that will be used for removal.

I went out today and checked to see if the distributor and camshaft were rotating... they were both rotating as should be What would be the next thing to check into?

File the points, clean and reset the point gap. change the oil and use a couple of quarts of tranmission fluid (Dextron III) in place of two quarts of engine oil. Replace the plugs with new ones (check the gap first)and see if you can get it started. If it fires but don't run, continue by replacing the points, cap and rotor if you determine those are crusty or worn. If it runs for 15 seconds, shut it off (really) and continue with;
radiator and coolant (water is OK for the time being). Run it again for 3-5 minutes at a high idle (not screaming). Pull all the spark plugs out, number them according to its cylinder, (with the engine warm) and do a compression check. Write down the results for each cylinder and check them at least twice. Pull out the spark plugs, number them according to which cylinder they came from, and tell us all the results for compression and the spark plug colors for each cylinder. If you get it running, note the oil pressure.

Whoa, didn't you say the valves didn't move? Valves don't move, engine won't run. Does this engine have hydraulic lifters? Maybe you need to pull the side cover and see if the lifters and pushrods are OK.

WHoops! OK valves don't move. What homer said.

I got the side cover pulled today. There was quite abit of buildup in there, but nothing looked bent or out of place. I was able to see one of the push rods going up and down when I hand rotated the engine though. I dont know if all the push rods are just stuck or what. Here is some pictures so you guys can see what I am talking about. Cody

http://i55.tinypic.com/2z4mhzn.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/nqo7m.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/16k6khx.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/10eeq1v.jpg

Better bite the bullet and take the head off. Better yet, pull the whole engine and do a full teardown and rebuild. That engine is gunked up way too bad to even consider a partial cleanup. You're also likely to find an extreme amount of wear at rhe cylinder walls, valve guides, etc. That one's been run far beyond normal oil change intervals to allow that much sludge to build up.
Jerry

I finally ended up taking the head off. The pistons and cylinder walls were in pretty good shape actually. I just have another question now. When I was taking the head off, the push rods ended up falling over and getting jumbled up. I dont know if this is a problem or not. I have read at a couple of websites were they said to keep them in order according to where they were. If this matters, how can I fix this issue? Thanks, Cody

I wouldn't worry about the pushrods being mixed up. That is a lot of sludge in there. My guess is that you would have a whole lot in the pan too. It looks like a full pressure type engine to me. It would be a good motor when all fixed up.

Yeah, I plan to pull the pan and clean it up as much as I can. Im mainly trying to see if I can just get it running. I bought the whole truck for really cheap and the engine was sortave an extra throw in. So im trying to keep from putting tons of money in it if it will run fine after its just been cleaned up. Another question, the things that the push rods sit in(im not sure what theyre called) How are they removed from the engine or can they be? I think its a 54 engine, block # is: 3835911

Those are lfters and they pull out the top of the lifter bores. Sometimes that is quite difficult.You can actually put nicks in the sides by using vicegrips on them.

That motor has hydraulic lifters, by the looks of it. I understand why you want to try running it. I usually try and do that to see if there are obvious bad sounds like bearing knocks.

If you remove the lifters and plan to re-use them, be sure they go back into the same holes they came out of. Each one has a unique contact pattern with the cam lobe it runs on, and if they're swapped around, the camshaft lobes and the lifter bottoms wear out quickly. I use tie-on tags to number the lifters 1-12 from front to rear.
Jerry

I took them all out today, labeled them and stuck them all in a plastic container to keep them clean. I noticed that on 1 or 2 of them, the plunger thing the push rod sits in, it was down and was free to move back and forth whereas all of the other plungers were at the top pushing against the clip that holds it in. Is this normal for it to be this way? Thanks, Cody

There is an internal spring that makes the plunger top out against the snap ring when the load of the pushrod is released by disassembling the valvetrain. If the plunger is stuck in the down position there's a problem. Lifters can be disassembled and cleaned with something like spray carb cleaner, but do it one at a time to avoid mixing up parts. There are some incredibly tight fits inside there, and mismatched parts usually don't interchange. Watch how things come apart if you choose to open one up, and memorize the relationship of the pieces or draw a sketch for reference.
Jerry

I got all of my lifter working fine the other day, thanks for the advice. I am not turning toward getting the head cleaned. Is there any way to tell if the valve guides etc. are all still good without disassembling the head? Cody

No.
Jerry