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| | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | These old rims, are the rivets the only thing holding the centers to the rims? Anyone know how these rivets worked, they are blind and do not pierce the back surface..??
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | The rims I have disassembled are extremely difficult to take apart (undamaged) even after removing the rivets.
Looks to me like the assembly procedure starts with shrinking the rim on the center while in the correct place for back space and runing true.
Then the rivet holes are punched, including forming a dimple/countersink on the inside of the rim.
Then the rivets are installed and set, usually flush on the inside of the rim, and with a low head on the dish side.
So to disassemble them even after you have drilled and punched the rivets out there is a lot of interference because the holes were punched and not drilled, and the countersink formed, creating even more interference between the two parts. Not to mention the original shrink fit.
My perfered method for removing the center is to remove all the rivets, then split the rim with a portable band saw so it springs open, and pretty simple from there to yank the center out.
I suppose you could make some large tools to support the center at the outside edge and press it out on a hydraulic press. But if you don't want to save the rim just cut it, that's simpler.
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Thanks Grigg, that was my thought to remove a center..
-Grind the heads flush
-Drill
-Carefully cut the rim... remove the center..
Have you done this and put the centers in different rims? | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | Skip the grinding and just drill from the outside of the rim where they are already flush. Only drill half way or so then punch them out.
I'll post a picture tomorrow with what I do with the center....
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Very nice, I have one Old BUDD wheel that has a very cool deep curved center that I was thinking would make a cool end table base...
as far as some of my other rims... I am going to attempt to fit a pair of centers into the new 1 piece Coker rims.. I know we had a conversation about it in the past... I mentioned it to my dad and he got me a pair of the rims for Christmas...
Worst case.. it doesnt work out and I ruined a rim that I need.. and wasted some time.. I think I can pull it off.. I just wish I had a practice rim of the right style. I only have two of the rims I want to do this too... | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | Can you post a picture of the new rim, I'm a little confused about what you're trying to do?
Either way, I think you can measure and calculate and get a really good idea if it'll work like you want even before you start.
Grigg
Last edited by Grigg; 01/12/2011 5:11 PM.
| | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 93 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 93 | IF you get the rivets out and the center still wont come try baking it. (If your oven is big enough, and you wife's not around). May not work with the added rust but it works for flywheel ring gear. Just the 450 heat expands the ring enough to remove it, might work on a truck rim too. | | | | | Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 68 Wrench Fetcher | | Wrench Fetcher Joined: Jan 2011 Posts: 68 | are you going to try and put the old centers in a new "spider" type rim race? my wifes dad mentioned that i should try to do that to keep the big bolt 10 lug pattern, but add a newer radial. possibly wider rim in th rears. if that is in fact what you are doing, can you let me know where you got the new rims? -DVZ | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Can you post a picture of the new rim, I'm a little confused about what you're trying to do?
Either way, I think you can measure and calculate and get a really good idea if it'll work like you want even before you start.
Grigg Grigg....Heres what I have going on http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo291/mack1416/efd073ea.jpghttp://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo291/mack1416/49ff5b63.jpghttp://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo291/mack1416/59c5e376.jpgare you going to try and put the old centers in a new "spider" type rim race? my wifes dad mentioned that i should try to do that to keep the big bolt 10 lug pattern, but add a newer radial. possibly wider rim in th rears. if that is in fact what you are doing, can you let me know where you got the new rims? -DVZ I do not know what the term "spider" Rim means... however I can tell you that these rims are for bias plys and the ones I ordered are only 4.5" wide.. although they do make a 6" I will keep you guys in the loop of how this all works out... Ill make sure to take pictures of each step... but one thing to keep in mind each style of these old rims seems to have slighly different diameter centers.. I have some 3 piece rims that are probably a half inch smaller in diameter and the centers would be too small... After I get the centers out, there will be some machining in order to get the center to fit...
Last edited by CORPO; 01/13/2011 4:29 PM.
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | So you have new one piece drop center rims for 20" bias ply tires? Will they require a tube?
I had not seen that kind of rim, but it looks like you have a good plan and it should work out assuming the back spacing works with the old center and where it can be placed in the new rim.
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | So you have new one piece drop center rims for 20" bias ply tires? Will they require a tube?
I had not seen that kind of rim, but it looks like you have a good plan and it should work out assuming the back spacing works with the old center and where it can be placed in the new rim.
Grigg According to what I was told, they dont require a tube, but it is recommended due to the height of the sidewall on these tires. They say it is possible to let air out when cornering from the side wall rolling over a bit... But they say you dont need flaps.. I think I might still run flaps... As far as the center placement, it should fit up against the drop center but the edge of the center will have to be narrowed, Lets say its about an 1" now, it will need to be like a 1/4" and then the whole diameter needs to be narrowed by like 3/32" these are rough estimates. Once I get a center out I will be able to make better measurements.. The one thing that might look funny is if you can see the drop center through the hand holes.. we will see...
Last edited by CORPO; 01/13/2011 7:09 PM.
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | Sounds like a plan, do you have a lathe large enough to swing the centers?
I'd skip the flaps, they are/were to protect the tube from being pinched or worn by the inside of the rim, and if you rim is all clean, one piece, and smooth then no point in having the flaps.
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | No I dont have access to a lathe large enough.. we can only clear about 16" on the lathe we have
But I have access to a Bridgeport with a turn table.. as long as I can indicate the rim centered on the turn table I should be good... I have already created a plate with the appropriate 4.75" diameter and some mounting holes. Plan is to indicate that center on the turn table and then locate the rim off the hub hole as it would be on the truck....
two votes for no flaps.. Ill go no flaps then!
Last edited by CORPO; 01/13/2011 9:06 PM.
| | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Grigg,
Removed the center from one of the rims tonight.. that was alot easier than I anticipated.. | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | No, not bad if you cut the rim, did you?
My lathe will only swing 18", not enough either...
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,961 'Bolter | | 'Bolter Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,961 | I can picture what Corpo is trying to do, but I'm not so sure he has a 20" drop center rims unless they are from something way back in the 1930's that I am not familiar with. There is a possibility that he has a 22.5 tubeless wheel which of course cannot be used with a 20" tire. Many years ago, it wasn't that uncommon for people to but a put a tube in a tubeless tire that was too bad to patch. The tubes were made by vulcanizing a tubeless stem on a tube after the brass stem had been sawed off. That was jerry rigging that I would never recommend these days. Flaps are only used in multiple piece wheels to keep the tube from chafing. I would like to see a picture of the rim Corpo has.
| | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | I can picture what Corpo is trying to do, but I'm not so sure he has a 20" drop center rims .... I would like to see a picture of the rim Corpo has. | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Grigg, Yes I drilled the rivets from the inside out, because I could not see them from the outside of the rim, then cut the rim and the center dropped out heres a shot, im committed now... next up is clean the outside edge of the center and make my measurements for machining http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo291/mack1416/1a137bf1.jpgCrenwelge... the rims are NEW drop center blanks from coker.. although I wont be using the drop center to maintain the offset to the mounting flange it will fit on the outside edge... at least thats the plan anyway... we will see how it goes... | | | | | Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,961 'Bolter | | 'Bolter Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,961 | Well, the light bulb has finally come on. I didn't know you were talking about new Coker blanks. I was thinking in terms of an old wheel that was new to Corpo. I actually did something similar with a Firestone Rh5² wheel. I have a brake drum lathe that will swing a 24.5 tie wheel and drum. I used the inside from the Firestone and a Tubeless open center rim. It turned out within runout limits. Trouble is, I only made one of them, and then I found a set of wheels with tires on them from Don Stoker and I'm using them. | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Haha.. this thread didnt really start as an explanation of what I was doing... if it works out well I will make a thread that makes more sense..
Narrow bias plys are the look I want for my truck... For now I am only planning on doing the ones for the front of my truck, if I had more funds I would do 6 rims... (assuming it goes well)
What run out did you have on yours when you were done? I wish I had a lathe that would do it.. but I think i can make my plan work out... My only concern is warping the rim with the heat from the weld.. But I have a plan for fixturing the two parts that should help alot | | | | | Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 . | | . Joined: May 2005 Posts: 8,878 | Looks nice!
On the next one plan on a shrink fit of the rim to the center, that's how I've always seen factory rims done. The rim will grow a lot if you warm it with a good torch, one or two of those propane weed burner things would be helpful. Be prepared with a jig to set backspacing as it cools. Then mount it and adjust and check with an indicator before tack welding.
For this one seems like you can tack weld it and adjust run-out as you go, then finish the weld after you've got it true and secure.
Grigg | | | | | Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,961 'Bolter | | 'Bolter Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,961 | I measured the runout down where the bead sets because the edge of open center wheels is often not true. I tacked a little at a time and got it within .050. I'm not so sure that excessive runout makes much difference. Back from the 60's until the early 90's I bought trucks with spoke wheels and drove them until I found Budd hubs for the steering axle and then converted the steering axle to Budd. We noticed no difference in handling with spoke on the steering, steel Budds or aluminum Budds on the steering axle. Of course the drivers liked the looks of the aluminum better. Radial runout makes a lot of difference, but with lateral runout, I don't think 20" tires turn fast enough to make a whole lot of difference. | | | | | Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 Shop Shark | | Shop Shark Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 186 | Looks nice!
On the next one plan on a shrink fit of the rim to the center, that's how I've always seen factory rims done. The rim will grow a lot if you warm it with a good torch, one or two of those propane weed burner things would be helpful. Be prepared with a jig to set backspacing as it cools. Then mount it and adjust and check with an indicator before tack welding.
For this one seems like you can tack weld it and adjust run-out as you go, then finish the weld after you've got it true and secure.
Grigg I was thinking about trying to shrink it in.. I even have access to a big oven.. but I needed to make sure I could get it where it needed to be on this first one.. im also somewhat concerned about warping the rim blank if I heat it too much.. But the plan is to come up with a decent fixture that I can mount on the rotary table that I used to machine the rim that I can spin and check the radial runout.. Crenwelge.. 050 sounds darn good to me.. I have heard that on the bias plys they usually dont run out all that well anyway cause alot of them are hand made?? none the less, i will get it as close as I possibly can... Thanks Guys! | | |
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