The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop CPP Brake install - Wheel &Power booster questions

I am about 60% through my CPP 6-bolt disc upgrade on my 51 Chevy 1/2 ton.

First some observations so far, then a couple of questions at the end.

There are definitely some frustrations with this kit and the 'instructions' are woeful.
Fundamental things like the 'handing' of brackets, which are not identified for left & right, nor indicated in instructions as to which is which is a serious omission.
For anyone who needs to know, the offset goes towards inside!

Another omission- although minor - the holes in the brackets for the flex/hard brake line junction need to be opened up in order for the union to fit through to insert the retainer.

The bottom bolts supplied for the caliper brackets are 1/2" - you find this in small print at the end of the 'instructions' and that you should drill out the corresponding OEM parts.
Well, since only the lower rear is used to attach the bracket on the bottom, the forward lower can still use a 7/16" bolt without any modification. So need to do anything there!
Also, were I to do this with the benfit of hind-sight. I would NOT drill the bracket & steering link out, but get a spacer bushing for the bracket to use a 7/16" bolt per original size! It would be so simple for CPP to add in this hardware - disappointing they don't.

Other than that all is fairly straight forward - although driving out the old bearings and the studs from one hub proved to be quite the chore. Prevailed in the end though. Heating the hub with a torch aided in bearing removal for the second one.
Before re-installing the new Tapered Roller Bearings, I dressed the chamfered edge of the hubs and lightly sanded the seat with some 320 wet/dry.
I popped the bearing shells in the freezer overnight; also wiped some release oil on the hub and the bearing shell prior to install, then tapped it flush with plastic hammer and wooden block. Here's a tip to drive the remaining depth - take your old bearing shell and cut a slot all the way through on the side; use that shell to drive the new bearing fully home. The split means you can actually pull it back out with your fingers, no need to worry about it being wedged back tightly again.

OK - my questions!

1) My truck is a 3-speed manual transmission. I see some references (incl in the sales listing) that a different transmission bracket may be required.
Is this necessary for my specific application?
2) I found one reference that said the rod linkage from the power booster does not fit to pedal without modification - can anyone confirm? (suggestion was it was too long & needed to be cut & re-threaded)
3)Can the original hard lines be facilitated to work with the new dual master/PPV? Or will new hard lines be required? These were replace dnot too long ago and still in good shape so if I can avoid replacing again, so much the better
4) Wheels. The sales lit says may not fit std wheels - well mine don't!!! They bind on the calipers Can anyone tell me what size spacer is required? (Or indeed hopefully that a spacer will work!) I may experiment with some washers in interim to see what's needed. Ultimately would like some new wheels to fit better tires, but need to get it back toegther in short term!

Regarding the power booster, I just came across the electric booster from ABS - depending on how much they are and if I can recover a reasonable amount on the vac booster, that might be interesting to try.
Anyone need a brand new vac booster still in the wrapping?

Thanks for listening and any advice on the remaining questions is appreciated.

I just discovered another problem with the kit -

The flex lines that are in the kit are the wrong ones/incorrect size!
I find that the banjo bolts & crush washers are the correct size for the supplied calipers, but the ID of the banjo fitting on the flex lines is too small for the bolt to go through!
I've had this kit for 18 months and just got around to installing.
I have sent mail asking for exchange but I'm not expecting a positive response, given the time since purchase, even though clearly their error.
Maybe good sense & good customer service will prevail!

Got mine from Performance online, everything fit.

ken
I just got your email but no link to respond directly to you per your request::

My 6 lug disc brake kit along w/ the master cylinder and tapered wheel bearings are/were on sale from Brothers. My belief is most all these kits come from one or two sources, that's why they tend to look similar. Get what you can on sale.
I did this conversion a couple years ago when I had the engine set in the frame. you should consider making or buying all new brake lines. if you make them they really arn't all that costly and it is farely easy. I wanted it all done at one time barring any unforeseen conflicts. none really to speak of . the brake master is a vacuum assist [off the edelbrock carb] master that has two resivoiurs, one for the front and one for the rear brakes. I have a dual disc set up on the front. the rear end is a 6 lug, 1977 suburban 1/2T 4x4 w/ heavy duty brakes. My power master cyl. bolts to a bracket that I believe is stock. this bracket bolts to the truck frame using 7/16''x1.25'' bolts. the resivoirs are connected to the brake lines that are two systems. the front of the brake resivoir which is the larger one operates the rear axle brakes. The rear resivoir operates the disc front brakes. this brake kit comes w/ a brass proportioning valve built into the resivoir bottom. i went to a flaps [friendly local auto parts store] and bought many 3/16'' brakes lines of various lengths, a couple of T's, and couplers. these i used to make up my brake system. when all was done I had to cut to fit some lines. I did so and took those lines to a local family owner brake shop and they double flared the ends re-using the flare nut i had cut off. When I returned to the truck i bent those last lines to fit my truck. 3/16'' brake lines are very easy to hand bend. just be very careful NOT to kink any. I fastened the lines to the frame rail w/ a rubber cushioned clip. i also went to a surplus shop and found 15'' x 1/4'' id dia. springs for Screen Door for 60cents ea. i streatched them out to about 2.5-3' long. i slipped them over the 3/16 brake lines for protection and looks before I had them double flared. the 5 double flares took about 10 minutes to have done at $4.00 ea. i did not want to buy a double flare tool and deal w/ it cause I would only do this one truck. $$ well spent. All the brake lines went together fine and please USE flare wrenches for all connections. Everything bleed well w/o bench-bleeding. start from the farthest wheel in the system to the closest to the master. I bought a qt. of dot 3 fluid and used a tube and a clean coke bottle.
Remember the rear axle brake lines must run on the back/rear side of the axle so a tow truck hook will not damage them. make sure the rear flex line has plenty of free movment when the axle moves up/down. that old stock chevy hard/flex brake line bracket got re-welded to a nicer spot. My rear brake line T is bolted to the axle pumpkin. My front brake lines exit thru stock holes in the frame and have a U shaped clip holding them in situ. those holes are a little big but seem to work. I bent the tube wide, so the threads would be straight when connected to the front flex hoses, both are protected by the 'C' frame in those areas. Make sure you have free movement wheel lock to lock w/ NO rubbing. My front brake line has two couplers at the ends of the crossover to tie all the front together because you can not fish it thru all the framework for protection.
My clutch T/O bearing arm is a very early corvette arm which is [all stock corvette] & bent forward to allow the use of the stock pedals.
as seen here: http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=10.jpg
I have never heard of anybody having problems like I did but not many guys have a 292 in an AD. we made up the adjusting devise, see pics.

I'm running a hybrid T5 tranny. no three speed so no comments.
all of my bolts that hold the disc calipre to the brake set up && transmission to bellhousing are grade 8's
you can NOT use stock rims when using disc brakes.

http://www.brotherstrucks.com/prodinfo.asp?number=KORN755
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=20-1.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=579990-R1-012-4A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=579990-R1-036-16A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=579990-R1-024-10A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=2748800-R1-045-21.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=577377-R1-010-3A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=577377-R1-008-2A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=DSC00327.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=DSC00313.jpg

sorry the rest of the chassis photos never made it thru the camera.

http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=5A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=8A.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=7A.jpg


what did i miss
good luck

Thanks for reply Jim - I had sent PM I think, not e-mail, but your reply in thread is much better for all to share anyway!

Much appreciated for all your experience.
The idea of using pre-made lines, then cutting one end to length & re-having the flare done on only one end is an excellent one.
I do have a tubing bender & high quality cutter already so may follow your lead there.

I haven't had much time to do much more over last couple of days - scoping out under truck have better perspective as to the booster install so pretty confident of that. My only question was on whether that cross-member would interfere with the booster I have - only way to find out is offer it up & see how it looks!

Did you go with individual lines to each front caliper directly from the PV or run to TEE from a single front port, then split off for each side? My PV comes with twin ports for front as well as the rear - has a blank in one of fronts. So can go either way on the front with completely separate lines or split at some intermediate point.

Here's progress so far

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll224/decosse01/Chevy/P4210720.jpg

although my kit was from performanceonline.com, and mine is 5 lug, i ran into a lot of the probelms you are experiencing, insufficient instructions, etc.

watch out for the mating surface on the calipers, where the banjo fitting and crush washer mate. mine leaked, from the calipers being refurbished too many times.

also, i ran one line to the front and T"d it to left and right.

leonard

I did a single off the PV to a T near the Lf front as in this shot then a single cross over to the left right side. I have a short line & couplers at both sides at the frame so I could have the brake lines placed against the frame. It IS the only way you can do this because of all the road blocks involved. i used two of the cable clamps on the frame cross bar.
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=579990-R1-012-4A.jpg
crossover protected by being inside the support crossover.
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=579990-R1-016-6A.jpg

this is my crossover for the T-5 tranny
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=DSC00367.jpg
http://s67.photobucket.com/albums/h298/1951otter/?action=view&current=15.jpg

i used this type rubber coated clamps to hold the fuel, my made up wire harness and spring covered brake lines to the frame. I bought them locally @ an electronics store. 5/16 3/8 1/2 & 5/8''
http://www.boltproducts.com/tinnerman%C2%AE-tube-harness-hose-clamps-p-117.html >>>[this is just so you see what i used]
glad 2 help

Thank you Leonard & Jim

Also Jim, I now see the answer on the front lines was already there for me in the first reply which had same picture - I just didn't look closely enough! Appreciate your indulgence!
Useful link on the line clips.

Leonard, the calipers are new on the 6-bolt - also both the caliper and banjo fitting have concentric raised circles which aid in the sealing.
The biggest issue on that front was the under-sized banjo fitting - having received no reply from the vendor in the course of last two business days, and factored that I bought this kit so long ago (which regardless should not change their responsibility), I elected to just drill them through to the required 7/16". I am confident this will work as originally intended. It's a change of only about 0.040" on the ID and still plenty of sealing surface for the crush washers.

no problem, anytime. at least your calipers are new, so thats good.
let us all know how it turns out.

leonard

Installed the bracket for the master/power servo this evening.
Once again some significant fitment issues.

First, I have a transmission cross-member going right where the master cylinder location will be. It's a little strange since there is nothing (i.e. tranny!) bolted to it!
I unbolted it from the frame rails & have removed it completely for now while I get the booster/master all installed, then will figure out what to do about that!

I offered up the bracket & it actually lines up pretty well with the old master mounting holes and the inside of the left frame rail. Popped a couple of new holes in the frame for those side mounts and bolted it up.

However there is no way that the stabilizer arm would fit as intended, as similarly indicated by member cletis (my appreciation for the pics!) on his 54 GMC Web Page in this image.
I had the same problem with where the end of the bar fell(although I did not share his bracket alignment issues).
I actually took a simpler 'out' and just bent the bracket at a more acute angle in order to have it fall further up the frame.
Then a new hole in the bracket and corresponding hole in the rail.

I could already tell just by looking at the length of the actuating rod of the booster that it was going to be long.
I measured from the rear of the bracket to the coupling point of the lever and got ~ 9.5".
Then measured the corresponding length of coupling rod - Even with the adjusters all the way in, I could only get to a minimum of 10" to the center of the Heim from the face of the booster (it probably started at ~13")
So I cut about an inch off the Heim joint end of the adjuster rod and also off the thread of the Heim. On re-assembly I took the heim in tight all the way and will just use the opposite end for adjustment. I now have at least 1/2" of 'slack' and can go longer if necessary.
Incidentally if they wanted to make the adjuster rod more user-friendly - in addition to it falling within the correct range of adjustment to begin with that is! - they would have made one of the threads left-hand:
this makes it possible to adjust without having to remove anything; loosen the lock-nuts spin the rood & the overall length with shorten or lengthen according to direction of rotation. Like a turnbuckle basically.

That's where I called it a night, should be ready to complete the installation of the booster & master tomorrow.
Then I can prep measurements for new lines which will be Friday's project (day off!)

I will take some pics tomorrow to illustrate these issues for anyone who might benefit from this down the road.

Here are some pictures of the issues experienced above in mounting the booster assembly.
Note the location of the holes for the cross-member that was removed! Pretty much right where the master wants to go.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll224/decosse01/Chevy/P4230723.jpg

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll224/decosse01/Chevy/P4230728.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll224/decosse01/Chevy/P4230729.jpg

Ken...I experienced the same problem,only I hadn't planned ahead!
I fitted my booster/mc before I fabbed my crossmember . As you can see I had to put a 'little' offset on the left side.
I realise my trans is a TH350C but the problem seems to be similar.
I guess you may have to consider doing the same.
I have also had some other problems with my disc brake kit,similar to the ones you described earlier.
I don't think this is common to just the CPP kit.
Mine was from Speedway....

That looks really great Jock - the offset worked out fine.

I'm not sure if I even need to put mine back in! There was nothing actually mounted to it anyway - about 2" space between the end of the 3- speed transmission and the crossmember but not even any sign of anything that was supposed to bolt there.
So it's been like that (effectively with no support!) since I've had the truck. There's not a good detail of that in the manual - I probably need to ask a question in another thread specific to the 3-speed transmission.

I know that CPP sells another cross-member so maybe that is what is needed (along with a tranny mounting bracket maybe!)

It looks like possibly this is the missing piece

http://www.brotherstrucks.com/images/RTMB854.jpg

That looks like it would bolt on the end of the transmission

D'Ecosse,
are you saying that your trans is not mounted to the cross member ? if its not mounted to the cross memebr, it needs to be.

although i have a th350 auto trans in my 57, i needed an aftermarket trans cross member installed to clear my power booster and master also.
here is the one i have.
http://www.classicparts.com/1947-59-Transmission-Crossmember/productinfo/79-505/

it mountes to the underside of the frame.

if you need pictures of my setup, let me knwo and i will snap a few pics for you.

leonard

I believe it should be - just that it wasn't!
(Would never have known if I hadn't removed it for the brake install)
The cross-member was there but the final rubber shock-mount was not installed. It wasn't obvious to me initially where a mount would bolt on that 3-speed transmission - and it not being there, made it hard to visualize - but having found the OEM part I linked above, looks like it bolts directly to the ball-joint collar.

My understanding of these after-market cross-members is that they bolt to the bottom of the frame rails, as opposed to the vertcal section as shown in my pics?

Pics would be welcome Leonard - even if tranny is different.
I imagine if there is any difference in the final height with the after-market unit, that can be addressed by a spacer as necessary.

D'Ecosse,
here are some pics of my aftermarket trans crossmember.
yes, it bolts to the underside of the frame.

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/...00/?action=view&current=DSC02094.jpg

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/...00/?action=view&current=DSC02095.jpg

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/...00/?action=view&current=DSC02096.jpg

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/...00/?action=view&current=DSC02097.jpg

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/...00/?action=view&current=DSC02098.jpg

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/...00/?action=view&current=DSC02099.jpg

excuse the use of flex pipe and muffler wrap.... once i get some money i need to get a professional exhaust system. LOL.

do you have any pics of the outside, interior, and engine you could post of your truck ?

any other questions, feel free to ask.

leonard

good luck on your disc brake up-grade. Mine will start in a few days. Question stock wheels -16 inch and 650/16stock tires.Can washers be used as spacers to keep the wheels from rubbing the new calipers? Will 16in Colorado wheels work. Where can one get wheels to work ? I have a set of 15in semi late chevywheels -6 lug. my e-mail is [email protected] truck is 50 chevy 3100 . Thanks Bob

many 6 lugs later rims work
spacers don't, it's the rim width that needs to clear the disc calipre not spacing

I just put 3 X 1/2" washers on each lug as a temporary measure, so I could move the truck (& test the brakes! - WooHoo!!).
Those collectively are about 0.30" total, or a shade under 5/16"
That does actually get the inside lip of the wheel outside the caliper - but only barely. Could just about slide a business card between. I would not call it safe with that small margin however, especially with a floating caliper.
Also the webs had to be trimmed slightly as per this image - http://jbhardin-gallery.com/trucks/wheeltrim.jpg courtesy of cletis

I wish I had taken a picture of the inside of the wheel to caliper to share - maybe I'll get one & post it up later - it's always helpful to see an image of these things to get a feel for the problem.

Yes, the brakes actually work - only moved the truck back & forward about 20 yds but they already feel great - looking forward to getting out on road test.

Thank you Leonard - much appreciated
That looks quite a bit lower than stock - did you add those spacers at the frame?
I'm sure even without those it will end up much lower than the stock transmission but should be easy enough to add a spacer block at the trany mount itself.

I don't have too many pics of the truck - I've had it way longer than I've had a digital camera, so the novelty of pics for a 'new' ownership never really happened.
I need to clean her up before I take any new ones!

Here's one that was in the background of a shot I took of some visiting turkeys

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll224/decosse01/Chevy/trucknturkeys.jpg

Washers will NOT work as spacers. Very dangerous, plus illegal. If you must use a spacer, use one made for the purpose. No more than maybe 1/4". don't forget that the studs will have to longer, too. Personally, I don't like spacers unles they wer a factory equipped design, and then only on the rear. Seen too many problems with them (I work in the business). Best wheel I could suggest would be the '73-'87 4x4 wheel or wheels for that application in aftermarket. Colorado wheels have too much backspace, and will rub. Same goes for '88-'09 full size.

hello again.

yes, the trans cross member seems to be lower than the original. i did not add the spacers, they were there when i bought the truck.

your truck looks great. very nice.

glad you now have power brakes. it makes a huge difference when driving. now i want power steering. LOL.

leonard

Is that a 15" or 16" wheel?

The factory wheels would be 15" for 1/2 ton, larger sizes are available if you go with an aftermarket wheel, at least up to 18".

just to give you more info on rims,
it is possible to put old caps on newer rims. it's not quite the same but it works.
i used 6 clips per rim, so i bought 30 just incase some of the spring steel clips broke on me when i figured mine out. plus a couple xtras.

http://www.speedprint.com/deves50/hubcapclips.php

d ecosse

here is another thing to do if you install a disc power brake master
access/ relocate hole to fill the resivoir in the floor

my $.02 on the CPP 6 lug disc conversion (bought and completed in November, 2009, by me, a car hobbyist):

Supplied instructions are really bad. They have a 3 page tech write up on their website that is considerablly better, but still not great. This thread is helpful to fill in the instruction "gaps". I thought it was curious that they didn't supply any torque values. The caliper brackets did bolt right on with the supplied hardware (and the unlabelled brackets go with the slight bend inwards) - no drilling was required to mount the brackets onto the spindles.

The conversion with the supplied 3/16" spacer plate is not enough space to clear the factory rim. I called CPP for tech support with the question about adding a second spacer plate to resolve the issue and the initial answer I got was "most guys buy different rims". A little more discussion and they said to make sure I have room in the wheel wells and enough lug nut thread before going that route. They never really said go for it or don't do it...

I'm not a fan of spacer plates, and two 3/16" plates will get the clearance but not sure if it is safe or smart.
Any thoughts on that? I could also angle grind the rims in the same area that a previous poster linked to get the clearance - that is where the interference occurs on my kit - is this an acceptable way to get clearance? - I'd really prefer to use stock wheels and bias tires.

EDIT: I put 2 shims on the one side (since the kit comes with two shims) - all tightened up, the stock rim clears the caliper and there is 2-4 threads on each of the lugnuts. It is a simple solutioin, but I am still curious if it is also a bad idea

I also changed to the the cpp 6lug kit incl. power-master.

Works good except bad reservoir fill. I also really do not like to soft pedal force, it does not make sense to me that the pedal linkage is not changed with that kit. I personally think that this is bad engineering!!!

My plan is that I just going to lengthen the piece of the linkage where the rod of the master-cylinder is connected. That should give me firmer feel on the pedal. I also plan on shortening the rod that is going through the firewal, because it doesn't need to be that long

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2551335450104893966ouofog

-Bernd-

What is involved in shortening the brake pedal rod? I think that would be a lot nicer if it wasn't so long. Of course my cluth pedal is the same length too.

the "Rally" style wheels from a 70s Chevy Blazer clear the six lug brake conversion and also clear the track rod end as well. I have these wheels on my '50 truck. The wheels can be modified to accept the original style truck hubcap without too much trouble. There's some more detail on this webpage.
http://millpower-race-engineering.piczo.com/?g=45768718&cr=5
Scroll down the page once you've clicked.

Stuart.

Wheel Vintiques 15x6 6 lug smoothies clear the CPP disc brake conversion.

Great info in here thanks

I already have a booster and master from another project who sells and or makes the best bracket for the 49 chevy using the stock brake pedal??

???

Should i just order the cpp bracket or does someone else make a better bracket???

Figured id ask this here since its about boosters has anyone seen,heard,or ran one of the ELECTRIC booster what your pros and cons "other then dead battery"??
http://www.abspowerbrake.com/images/FINAL064_4754chevyTruck-kits.jpg

???

DOES ANYBODY COME IN THIS TOPIC BESIDE ME?? IF SO CAN ANY OF YOU AWNSER ME OR HELP ME PLEASE THANKS

You have the floor.