The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Marvel Mystery Oil

The M5 tank used Engine OIL, OE, 10-20 weight in the transmissions depending on the climate (TM9-1727C and the Lube Order ). So no, ATF was simply not used in WW2.

And the M5 is statistically insignificant (8k production) when compared to the almost 2,000,000+ MANUAL transmission vehicles produced. Not that is didn't fulfill a niche, but it was obsolete as a tank in 1942. In the Pacific they did well, but that was more because Japan didn't really believe in mechanized units.

I thought that was where GM perfected the Hydramatic transmission was in tank use during WWII?? At least that is what they claimed.

John

John,

The Hydra-Matic transmission was "battle tested" during WWII - "perfected" might have been a word used by some GM PR people?

Military service brought no dramatic design changes to the Hydra-Matic transmission, but it forced GM to resolve many of its early teething problems. After the war, Cadillac and Oldsmobile advertising would, with some justice, proclaim that Hydra-Matic was “battle tested.”"

The H-M transmission was used on M2-M5 "light" tanks, and the M24 "light" tanks.

I tried to find a Chevy service manual that would say what to put in the Hydra-Matic (remember, the original quote was about pouring ATF into the intake of a car motor) but could not.

I gave the TM number (google it, its readily available to download) and you fill the transmission(s) with 10-20 weight heavy duty engine oil, not ATF. Maybe because there was no torque converter it could use regular oil?

You could also argue that GM made at least 20,000 H-M transmissions (two per tank, plus spares) but there would not have been any major design changes during production. There is no mention of one any in the TMs.

The M5 is a neat little tank... but it was simply not a major player... esp when you can count almost a million jeeps/CCKWs without even doing the math.

And the H-M was really a stopgap because the original radial engines used in the M5 were diverted to aircraft... so they needed *something* to put in the M5.

Is anyone pouring motor oil into their intake in an effort to clean out the top end?

No ones argueing that the M5 was a major player in WWII nor the total numbers of straight shift military vehicles in in WWII.

As stated, I originally posted that a WWII Vet, who is no longer with us, claimed to have put automatic trans fluid down the carb of gasoline engines and intakes of diesel engines because they believed that it cleaned the carbon out of the topend of those ICE's.

You stated that automatic transmissions were not used in the miltary until the 50's and you were obviously wrong.....

He served during WWII and one of the stories he shared was that he was a driver w/the Red Ball Express which anyone with any miltary knowledge of WWII will know what that was. He served up into the 50's in motor transport and they definitely had automatic transmissions in many military ICE propelled vehicles that used either Type A, Type F or equivalent oils during that time frame.

I read your linked pdf on servicing of the auto trans in the M5 (and various other military machinery that used the auto trans during WWII, btw) and saw that they used heavy duty engine oil at the time when that spec was wrote. I'll grant you that but, at some point in 48/49 GM finally spec'd the requirements for automatic transmission oil that met their requirements and it was for Type A trans oil.
At what point did GM change from engine oil to Type A or some equivalent oil such as an aircraft hydraulic oil that "may" have been used by maintenance crews to get better performance out of those auto trannys before the spec I can find no documentation. But I have found several on-line sources that indicate even the oldest known Hydra-matics still in service today by antique collectors such as ourselves use Type A, Type F or the modern Dexron equivalents. Nowhere is engine oil even considered an option. So obviously the spec changed for the Hydra-matics oil.

So the argument seems to have morphed from you being wrong on auto tranny use during WWII to still trying to debunk that military service personel used auto tranny fluid to clean carbon out of ICE's. The time frame "may" be wrong when they started useing it but the fact remains that I was told by more than one WWII era Vet that they did use it during the times they served which was in the 1940's/50's.

re. pouring engine oil down the intake of an ICE to clean out carbon. I don't know of anyone that would do that as it would not only contribute to carbon contamination but would also foul out the sparkplug, I wouldn't recommend it.

Dave

There is a copy of the lube order dated 1944 (its on g503.com) that shows the transmissions are filled with (IIRC) 15 qts of 10-20 weight engine oil. Stick a fork in it, its done.

As a reenactor (WWII, 45th and 25th inf Div) I have met A LOT of vets from WWII. I have heard it all. From absolutely rare tidbits of daily life to outright errors. One vet said the M1919a4 we had was never used in WWII, another said he never saw a 5 gallon gas can, other claimed the M1 held 20+ rounds... like a Tommy gun. So yeah.. vets do recollect things in ways that are not entirely accurate. We never corrected them, it is not the palace for a student of history to argue with a person that was there.... but we also don't spread misinformation... no matter the source.

If you want to pick nits and say that there were automatic transmissions in WWII fine, but they essentially were a moot point and did not contain 'ATF' as the post said. So no, ATF was NEVER poured in the intakes of WWII vehicles. ATF at the time was engine oil. Well, I'll say that there may have been some Joe Dope that though he could lubricate the valves if he poured it into the intake. People do all kinds of weird things out of ignorance (proper term).

I keep forgetting that on the internet you must be 115% accurate and concise or the person on the erroneous end will cling to whatever crumb of ambiguity is available to contradict you.

Here's the document in question.. You seemed to have doubted me... don't do that.

M5a1 lube order G503.com

OE is Engine oil. Its called out on one of the other images.

More transmission oil esoterica (total BS, perhaps):

The only concern regarding the composition of Hydra-Matic oil/lubricant used up to (through?) WWII was with oil produced by a "modern" solvent-refining method, as apposed to the oil produced by the "older" acid-refining method. Under certain operating conditions, the solvent refining process oil would gum/gel up. GM determine that a solvent-refined oil formulation that included sperm oil (whale oil) provided the required quality/characteristics. The GM code for that oil was WA-161.

There was a post WWII Type A automatic transmission fluid/oil but I do not know when it was specified
It looks like the Type-A, Suffix A automatic transmission lubricant came into use around 1956.

Type B automatic transmission fluid (DEXRON) contained whale oil; but,
DEXRON II, Type C fluid were developed/introduced (in the 70s - 1972?) because whale oil "production" was banned.

With regards to the topic of early Hydra-Matic oil:
Up through WWII (up to early/mid 50s), as long as the H-M oil was made by the acid-refining process, the main consideration, as posted above, was to use a grade of oil that matched the operating temperature (lighter oil in colder operation, heavier oil in warmer operation).

With regards to the post that tank/vehicle transmission oil was run though carburetors during WWII, perhaps this was an attempt at "upper-end or top-cylinder or top-end lubrication" (to keep valves from sticking?)? Different "snake oil" concoctions/devices were also used for this purpose, even before lead was removed from gasoline.

exactly....

To the OP, sorry for the hijack.

I grew up in the 1950's around the ONLY shop in Nashville Tennessee that repaired automatic transmissions for several years, and Hydramatics comprised at least half of Dad's transmission business for a lot of that time. We bought Type A transmission fluid by the 55 gallon drum. Was Mr. "Knows Everything" even alive back then?
Jerry

Boy.......am I glad I dint stick my nose into this one!


Denny G

Chicken!!! LOL

I know on the 1956 Pontiac manual it says if Type A isn't available one can use 10w oil, but it should be changed out for the Type A as soon as available.

John

Something like this?

I read about guys using type F ATF in their fuel years ago. Supposedly it looses up the gunk and the Sulfur content lubricates the upper end.

Back to Marvel mystery.... I started using it back about 1972 in my Yamaha 2stroke desert racing motorcycle. The oil we used back then was really dirty. MMO helped keep the piston and rings clean. Really worked well. I used it in my outboards on my fishing boats for the same reason. Now I also use it in my gas powered RC airplanes, along with good quality oil in the mix. A little bit in the tank of my Honda dirt bike gives the fuel a nice red tinge. A few capfulls in the gas for the rest of my vehicles.... Gives me that warm fuzzy feeling!

Here's a fuel mix to try in those RC planes:

Methanol: 70%
20% concentration Hydrogen Peroxide: 29%
Amyl Acetate: 1%

Mix with whatever lube oil concentration you normally use. DO NOT store the mixed fuel in a steel gas can! The Peroxide eats the bottom away. One of our pit crew members back in the 1950's used the same fuel in his rat racer planes that we used in the flathead Ford engine in the dirt track race car.
Jerry

Jerry, I'm assuming the mix you speak of would be for a glow engine? Our normal fuel for them is methanol/nitromethane/oil. Ignition is with a glow plug. Our larger gas engines use gasoline/oil mix and are lit with a sparkplug. They are normally 2stroke weedeater/chainsaw type engines. Very interesting!

that reminds me of this fella at work, he put model airplane fuel in his weedeater, I don't remember exactly the out come, but it wasn't favorable. It was however rather humorous the way he told it. All that aside, Marvel Mystery Oil is definitely useful in an industrial/mechanical environment in oh so many ways. It does certainly look a lot like ATF, I wouldn't think they would use the friction modifiers in MMO though. But with that being said,like pretty much most of us, I really have no idea for certain what it contains. I don't have a petroleum product laboratory in my garage, but if I win the lottery I will build one and answer all the oil questions with personally verified facts. There will be no need for thanks, mostly because to win you have to play...

Yes, those were glow plug engines. He ran several planes, the old school control-line types that just went around in a big circle. He ran a Fox 35, and some brand of 60 and 90 engines in the rat racers. he sent a sample of the fuel to Fox for analysis, and got a letter back indicating it was a very good fuel, but it would void the warranty if he used it in one of their engines!

In the race car, we used a stainless steel beer keg for a fuel tank, stainless fuel lines from the tank to the carb, and ran the carburetor dry between races to prevent the fuel from eating holes in the float bowl of the carb. The H2O2 produced more free oxygen for combustion than nitromethane!
Jerry

WWII (1939-1945) predates the 1950's by (wait.... carry the one, divide by 0, multiply by square root of infinity) um... 5 years.

So yeah, math.

People pour all sorts of things into a motor hoping to fix a thousand dollar problem for $5. Feel free to do so. There are a few rare things that do work (water in the intake will clean the carbon out of a cylinder) but the vast majority of cleaners, enhancers, friction reducers may work on a specific test rig in a lab... but gain you very little (very, very, very little).

If 'The Tornado' really added 20% more MPG to a car don't you think it would be on them so the big 3 didn't have to spend MILLIONS on R&D to meet cafe requirements?

If reducing friction was as easy as adding a chemical to the oil don't you think it would be in there by now?

In 20 years we are all driving electric cars anyway... and in 21 years we'll all be debating what $5 concoction lubricates the electrons the most to reduce resistance and gain more current to the motor

YAY Caso.....

Since the URL in part says "History of ATF" I'm gonna take a guess that it's about something that we are not talking about.. which is ATF fluid used in the Military in WWII.

So.. even though I have provided a period document (two, at last count) that clearly shows that ATF fluid what not used in the ONE vehicle that was actually filled with an AT, we now get to take a ride on the 'I googled something that it tangentially related to something that is a minor issue about something that never happened.

Since I am such a nice fellow,

www.lifeautomotive.com/pdfs/history_of_atf.pdf

IS the proper URL

Basically it says what I have... early ATs used engine oil, it didn't work, GM in 1949 created ATF Type A (4 years post WWII, for those counting).

Can the rest of us have some of what you're smoking? It must be some good stuff!

Jerry

HR... I take umbrage to your inferring the good s*&t comes from Pennsylvania!!!
We all know the LEFT coast is were it (The Good Stuff) comes from

Just an historical FYI. Hemp was contract grown for the Navy in the Midwest. You see it made for good rope. So I would bet that the "good" stuff was from the middle.....:)

Busted!
Once again the forum demonstrates that no matter the subject (even the forbidden ones) it all comes down to ones perspective... or intended use?

My friends at the USAF electronics school at Chanute AFB (Rantoul Ill.) found a few of those WW II plants growing wild in a fencerow between some cornfields. They used to finance weekend party trips to Chicago with duffel bags full of the stuff picked on the way up there!
Jerry

This has moved way off topic. You'd have to smoke at least 10 times more of the rope hemp (cannabis sativa sativa) to match the affect of the legal-in-Colorado variety (cannabis sativa indica).

Who knows, this info might be correct.

Do you think the burlap used under old truck seat upholstery was hemp based? (this is a lame attempt to get this post back to being truck related - I think it was originally about "snake oil")

that's funny, it seems like you are the only one that was on THAT subject, everyone else was discussing when ATF was first used. I'm thinking any fluid that is put in an automatic transmission becomes automatic transmission fluid by default. So to go off on one of your favorite rants. They just hadn't thought of that name for it yet. But of course you are the only person on earth that knows anything, so I will bow down to your vastly superior knowledge of EVERYTHING, despite the fact I don't think you have ever presented an argument that was complete or in context. Just wondering how you can claim to be so knowledgeable about EVERYTHING, yet the only post I have actually seen from you about something you weren't arguing about was, why your distributor won't turn in the block, after you put a nice coat of paint on the machined mating surfaces. water is wet

Holy crap 8 pages of rants. You guys should sit down with dr. Phil and chat about your feelings.

You could grind up (or boil???)hemp for the oil.. I think... not gonna google it and let the NSA add yet another page to my file.

Most of the seats I have dealt with from the 40s (and even the 60's) were horse hair or boars hair. Who knew horses went to the barber??

The mystery is nobody knows if it works and the marvel is they got your money. Also I think you kids should simmer down and play nice. verbal confrontations are out of place on Stovebolt.




Weeds

ATF is not motor oil. Nor has anyone advocated pouring motor oil into the intake (although if you used the fluids that you put into the transmission of an M5A1 tank you would be doing exactly the same thing.

Whats super funny is that GM *INVENTED* ATF because motor oil didn't work well.. and I posted that fact, and the year.

SCIENCE!

OK,
Let's stir the pot a bit.

Marvel Mystery Oil is about 3/4 Light Oil, and 1/4 Solvent; theoretically with oil of wintergreen mixed in for flavor.
MSDS

So, does this solvent wipe our protective zinc layer from our flat tappet cams when used in the crankcase?

-build 'em to drive 'em

Well, if you read this rubbish: http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm you would think that zddp is 'killing cars' and that the big major car co's were in on the 'secret' so only their motors had the right stuff to be saved.

Millions of cars still use flat tappets (its called something like inverted bucket cam) look at this picture and show me how this is NOT a flat tappet: https://www.highpowermedia.com/RET-Monitor/3079/hydraulic-tappets

There is ONE exception... if you are using high lift cams or double valve springs (aka very high performance valve train components) with a flat tappet then you will need a much higher quality oil with a lot more additives.

Even when ZDDP is included in the oil the ZDDP breaks down very quickly and its not the ZDDP that protects the wear surfaces, but byproducts of the ZDDPs breakdown.

If you have to run MMO in an motor your motor is broke enough to need fixing. You can cover it up with goo in a bottle, but if adding MMO, Unicorn pee or the tears of orphans into the oil would somehow fix something it would be triumphed by the big companies... but to date, as far as I know, there are NO approved oil additives for production cars.

That statement alone speaks volumes.

And this really all you need to know (no matter what the snake oil salesmen say about ZDDP):

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group