The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 216, 235, or ???

A guy on another board was asking for help ID'ing his engine. The engine is in a '49 pass. car, has the 2-stud valve cover and the triangular plate just above the pan rail and behind the exhuast pipe. The engine number is GAA xxxxx (it had a production no. but I didn't write it down). So far so good, eh? Here's the kicker, it's got a short side cover. So, what the heck is it - I've got a theory but I'll wait to hear from the experts.

GAA as an engine serial number prefix IDs the block as:
1949 passenger car, regular engine (216?), Flint, MI
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/chevyresto/4908.htm
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/models/engine.htm#49eng

This is not an expert answer - just a wild guess: it could be a low-pressure 235 head on a 216 block with holes added for attaching the short side cover?

What is the head casting code and head date code? This info might clear things up and/or make the guessing more interesting.

Here is a good description of the differences through the years:
Chevy Six features
Have a look at picture # 13. The mention of the "smooth" contour is a key point. If you have the smooth contour, it is a 50 to 52 low pressure. If you don't but it has the triangular plate, it would be a 1953 low pressure motor.

Great resource. Is this a tech tip? In either case, hope you don't mind if I saved off a copy of the PDF for future reference.
HB

truckernix, that's a great resource, I copied it as well for future reference. Thanks for posting. The pic he posted of the head doesn't show the area between #1 and #2, however the area between #5 and #6 is "smooth" if that tells us anything.

tc, I asked him to post the date codes several days ago, so far he hasn't.

My theory for what it's worth: his car was built in late '49 and they threw in an early "'50" 235 that was built in late '49 and stamped it GAA. Sounds odd I know, but I've already seen quite a few exceptions to what we thought were the "rules".

Since we are all guessing, we should allow second guessing (until we get date codes and other codes - see below).

Does the car have a manual transmission (as was standard in 1949)?

Let's say it is a late 1949 car with a manual transmission and was treated as a 1950 engine/transmission combination. In 1950, the engine in a manual transmission car would have been a 216 (tall side cover). In 1950, the Powerglide was introduced and it was matched (standard equipment) with a 235 engine (short side cover).

Now, to follow through further in considering your theory, what is the block & head casting codes and block & head date casting codes?

If the head is smooth between #5 and #6 then it is a 1950 to 52 low pressure motor. In Canada they used the same casting number for the 216 and the 235 heads and blocks for that motor.

That reference was to a page that I think one of our members, might have composed.

Well trucker, if you're sure it's a '50 235 or later I'd say my theory is looking pretty good (remember, the ID no. is GAA------)

It looks to be a stick car in the pictures. HERE is a link to his pictures and thread. Maybe you guys can see something I'm missing. Still waiting for the casting/date codes but not holding my breath.

That head is definitely from the 1950 to 52 216/235 type of motor. It doesn't fit any other type. As far as whether it is a 216 or a 235, that is a little tougher. I don't think the casting numbers will tell you that. That motor is the same as type as I have in my truck. I learned a lot of these details when looking for a replacement head. Here is a photo in my Webshots. If you look at the head between the front two plugs you will see the smooth area.

Head Photo My Truck

truckernix that is a great resource! About the best comparison/description I have ever seen. Lots of leg work by somebody(ies) to gather and compile that info. Perfect for ID'ing a motor from the exterior. If I could make one suggestion to the authors would be to include some discussion about the # of head bolts (15 v 18). Really great work; I saved it too. Thanks.

waldo53 I don't see how it can be a 216 or pre-50 235 block because of the way the side of the block and head are open under the tall side cover and you can see the push rods go past the spark plugs (when side cover is removed). That GAA code is definitely a 1949 code...

Hey, would a replacement motor/block have a serial number? Wasn't it the case that when the old motor was replaced by a new one the mechanic was supposed to stamp the original serial on the pad... What if the 49 216 was replaced with a new 50-52 235 and the old serial WAS stamped on the pad? (Did somebody think of that already?)

Frank50,
my 1951 216 has the identical block and head. They made 216s and 235s in the period of 1950 to 52 with this style. It appears that some vehicles during this time had the old style 216 with the tall side cover and some had this style.

Frank50's observations and questions about the stamped serial number are good. As I mentioned a few months ago, I own or have owned five 261 engines and only one of them has (or had) a stamped serial number that was correct for the block. The other four turned out to be replacement blocks, and the owner either left the pad blank or stamped in the number from the original engine (not a 261) that was in the car receiving the 261.

The engine in the 1949 Chevy in question seems to be a 50-52 PG engine, but there are other possibilities. the only way to know for sure is the take the engine apart and see what is inside. There is the possibility (close to zero) that a low pressure engine with babbitt bearings had been converted to full pressure with insert bearings. The block and head casting codes and date codes are needed, as has been stated above. Even these can be confusing, as the date casting code for a replacement part might not be consistent with the year for the original.

Again, thanks to truckernix for the link to the engine history summary.

Hoyt

The Master Parts Book shows only 1 head for the 216's from '41-'53 (3835517). The '50-'52 235's seem to be a unique animal because in '53 they changed the head again for the 235 (wouldn't that one be an 18-bolt head?)

Just curious trucker, what is the casting no. on the head on your truck?

waldo53,
here is a link to a previous post of mine, with the numbers:

head casting numbers
As you can see, I now have an identical style head with a US casting number.

truckernix I should have looked at your location. There were some differences with Canadian motors and most of us in the lower 48 are not very familiar with them. But back to the guy on HAMB who posed the original question; does he have a US motor or Canadian??

The side cover is from a 53 or later 235
because it has the dimple in the center.

Side cover info:

1937 thru 1949 - ALL
1950 thru 1953 - ALL w/ 216 only
9 1/2 x 26 7/8 overall (some list 9 7/16 x 26 7/8)

Begining in 1950 thru 1952
ALL 235
5 5/8 x 27 overall (some list 5 19/32 x 27)

Then in 1953
ALL 235, 261
same as above 5 5/8 x 27
but has the dimple in the center

The coil is located between 3 & 4,
some coils are between 4 & 5.
Anyone know the year difference?

They had 216s and 235s with the same short side cover between 1950 and 1952.

Your friend on the HAMB would have to post the casting numbers to tell if they were US or Canadian. I was surprised to see that there was no stud and nut on the end of the manifold. My replacement head is from a car and it has threaded studs on each end of the head.

I should have included, that the above side cover info was from the
Chevrolet Master Parts Catalog, printed in the USA.

Like Frank50 said,
most of us in the lower 48 are not very familiar with Canadian motors.

Hopefully, he will post the casting numbers and we will all learn more about Canadian motors.

Here is a link to a casting number listing by Hemmings:
Head Casting Numbers
You will see the casting number 3835499 listed as 1950 to 52 216. This is the head that I now have on my 216 and it has the short side cover. This is a US casting. The original Canadian casting number is 3695451. I woould say that this type of 216 existed in Canada and the US.

In the USA Chevrolet Master Parts catalogs,
3835499 is listed as a 235 and also a 261.

That head casting number was used twice and has 2 different part numbers.

For the 261, in 1954, the part# 3703569
and also the 1950-52 235, part# 3835545

I'd be a little careful about the Hemmings head casting info site. In addition to 3835499, it contains other errors.
Example, 1955 truck with a 216, also 1954 truck 3635499 with a 261(should be 3835499)
-------------
The 1950 Master Parts Catalog listing for cylinder head:

1941-49 ALL (use 14 MM spark plugs) casting 3835409, part# 3835408
1950 ALL w/ 216 Eng. casting 3835517, part# 3835543
1950 ALL w/ 235 Eng. casting 3835499, part# 3835545

The 1951 Master Parts Catalog listing for cylinder head:

1941-49 ALL,
1950-51 ALL w/ 216 Eng. casting 3835517, part# 3835543
Note: When 3835543 is used for replacement on 1941-49 it will also be necessary to use 45 degree valves.

1950-51 ALL w/ 235 Eng. casting 3835499, part# 3835545
-------------
The 216 casting 3835517 is listed until 1953.
The 235 casting 3835499 part# 3835545 was later changed to part# 3835908. Listed as 1950-52 ALL w/ 235.

This is a very interesting side trail.

So trucker has a 3835499 on his 216. That would be a 15-bolt head, right? And the parts book shows a 3835499 for the '54 261? That would be an 18-bolt head, right?

Are we to conclude that they used the same casting no. on two completely different heads?

I find that listing interesting too. My head I believe has 18 bolts but the pattern is different than the other later heads. For instance, it would not fit a 54 to 62 235. From what OliRag has pointed out, my replacement head must have come from a US 235 motor. In the Canadian GM manuals, they state that both the block and the head for 1950 to 52 use the same casting for the 216 and the 235. They must have done a lot of machining at the factory! When I buy head gaskets, I have to ask for a 1950 to 52 235.

I have a correction for my last posting on this. The head on my 216 has a US casting number and it definitely came from a 216 motor, not a 235. I say this because the machining on the inlet ports fits the 216 alignment rings, not the 235 rings.