The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Got Gas, Got spark, won't start, take two!

I've read this thread and seem to have the same problem he had. Got Gas, got spark, won\'t start!

The carburetor is getting gas to the throttle body just like him. I used the shop book to set the #1 cylinder with the flywheel arrow and bead. Using the 12 o'clock position on the dist. cap, my #1 is at 4 o'clock position. All the pictures and advice have there #1's at 6 with firing continuing at 53624. Am I missing something? I've also rotated the distributor with the "octane selector". I also think its firing because I can smell something burned and its not gas fumes. The engine also "lugs" non uniformely when cranking and then smoother when the ignition is off. I've tried the plugs in uniform rotation and get two backfires through the carb. What would that mean?

Like GMC53, I have limited tools at hand and can't check specific compression, vacuum, timing light, etc. How do I hand crank a '46 216 with a wrench? I'm afraid to use much starter fluid or if I should how much and often. I've asked a few questions before dealing with this and still can't seem to find the answer. There just appears to be no combustion yet I've checked and checked again for compression, spark, fuel, air; yet nothing happens and I have them all.

Life if tough in Troy sometimes. How could it not start when you have all the right ingredients?

I think all is well...but not at the proper time!

The location of #1 on distributor cap can be anywhere you want. It is not an arbitrary thing.

What is important is that the firing order is correct, and follows the rotation of the distributor.

My thought would be to loosen the distributor hold down screw/bolt, and rotate the distributor any old way you want. Try and start it and see what happens. If it doesn't work better, swing the distributor the other way.

Moving it in one direction should get you some results...maybe even get the old beast running.

If you have a helper, have them try to start the rig as you rotate the distributor. Again, you will probably see results with one of the rotations.

If the air cleaner is off...keep your face out of a direct line of fire with Mr. Carburetor.

Let us know what happens.

Stuart

You have to remember that the engine makes two revolutions for each distributor rotation, so the flywheel arrow will line up when you are ready to fire on number six or on number one. Either hold your finger over plug hole number one until compression blows it out and turn the engine over to the closest place that the arrow is on the crank marker, then check to see where the rotor is pointing and put number one wire in that position and the other wires in the correct firing order or pull the valve cover and check to see if both valves are closed on number one when the timing mark lines up. If they are not, rotate the enginge one revolution and place number one wire in the location where the rotor is pointing, etc. The distributor could have been installed in any attitude, so you can't go by where number one is supposed to be unless it was installed correctly. Put the octane selector on zero and only use it for fine tuning after you get it started.

I too think it is in the firing order/position. Here's what I've done.

With valve cover off, and #1 plug out, I've cranked the engine till thumb was blown off. Marked position of rotor at 4. Both valves are closed. I do know that the pointer lines up on number 6 also. I've set the plug rotation to that as well and get the two backfires at that spot.

Atomarc, are you referring to the band around the distributor to loosen, or the bolt adjusting the octane selector? Bare with me, I'm new to this yet!

Thanks, I'll double check these again.

Kyle

Kyle,

I actually thought we had been through all this.

You are VERY close to success.

Both Toyvo and Baldy have set you on the correct path.

When your thumb is pushed off the plug hole by the rush of air, obviously the piston is coming up. BEFORE it is completely up, do as you have done before and watch for the BB or triangle, and slowly pull the engine over with the fan until the pointer and mark are lined up.

Pop the cap off the distributor and note the location of the end of the rotor. The #1 wire will go into the tower on the cap that will be over that rotor when when you put the cap back on. It doesn't have to be perfect...that is why you turn the distributor.

Then insert the other wires in proper firing order following the rotation of the distributor...clockwise!

If you play with the distributor, I think you can leave the octane selector tight on the block, and adjust the distributor by loosening the screw clamp around the housing.

Get ready to take a drive...

Stuart

Yeah, we've been through this, but I took time out to fix the carb. and still no luck so now this thread. Anyway, the fan belt won't turn the engine but just a little, should it turn this hard?

Kyle

Kyle,

Just turn it a little at a time. Pulling the plugs for this operation really helps.

I know I have jabbered with you, but wasn't sure what the topic of the thread was.

Don't make the timing thing more of mystery than it really is. If you really want to be crude, you can just pull the wires out of the cap and parade them around like musical chairs.

When it gets close, things will start happening.

Stuart

Ok I am lost. Got the part about blowing finger off plug hole, lost me when you said position of rotor at 4 and pointer lines up with 6.
Start over;
1. Finger blows off hole #1 cyl. Now with a wrench turn the crankshaft (ignition off) untill the ball lines with the pointer. (you may have to turn it backwards or forwards to find it but it should not be to far off.)
2. Now look under the cap and mark the place the rotor points to on the outside of the distributor.
3. Put the cap on and install 1 wire in the cap at the same location that you made the mark. (forget what the book said about position of the wire in the cap) This is #1 wire and should be pluged onto #1 plug.
4.Remove the cap have some onespin the engine with the starter and note the direction the rotor turns.
5. Reinstall the cap, plug in #1 wire, remember the direction of rotation. The next place you can put a wire in the cap in the direction of rotation of the rotor is the next cylinder to fire in the firing order. If your firing order is 153642 then #5 wire will be the next wire to hook up. Again in the same rotation #3 will be next, then 6-4-2 in order.

Repost when this is done.

Update for those who have/are helping me through this.

I've taken the advice from all and reset the timing. Here's how I went about it.

1. Took valve cover off to watch #6 int/ex open and close to determine #1 UDC. Also verified the air on the thumb.
2. Marked position of rotor to determine #1 wire sequence.
3. Took flywheel pan off to adjust pointer on BB.
4. moved distributor clockwise till points were at apex, regapped at .08, and backed till points just started to open and tightened distr.
5. Cap back on, #1 in place with 53624 in clockwise order on cap.
6. Just not to ruin a new set of plugs. Reinstalled old ones, shot starter fluid for 2 sec. down throat. Hit starter for 10sec. Nothing.
7. Pulled plugs, looked in carb; see fuel mixture/vapor leaking out of all.
8. Notice that coil is warm as well as +cable on starter. This seems to be a first.
9. Now I've disconnected and drained fuel line and will attempt to start with new plugs and starter fluid only, later tonight.

Ofcourse now I'm concerned about the electrical situation with the coil. Could it be warm because I forgot to turn the key off for a few minutes? I'm not an electical automotive wizzard. I can wire a house but not diagnoss a car. I have an electrical tester but it doesn't describe anything for 6 volt systems and I don't want to fry it trying. Suggestions?

Thanks for the tips so far.

Kyle

Was the firing order correct when you rechecked it?
The coil was hot?? Hummmm. Which side of the coil do you have the switch connected to? - or +
Should be +, points should be -. If it is wired backwards it will still spark but will be a weak spark.
You said you removed the flywheel pan off to adjust the ball to the pointer? Was that so you could turn the engine by hand? The reason I ask is that there is an inspection hole just above the starter where that ponter is and you don't have to remove anything to see it.

Kyle,

I thought you would be driving around by now.

A ignition coil can heat up if the key is left on and the points are closed.

Your timing procedure, although a tad complicated, appears to have you where you are suppose to be.

A little trickle charge into the battery would have been a good idea until you return for tonight's episode.

I WOULDN'T remove the carburetor and do the starting fluid only drill. This won't accomplish much and might confuse things.

You indicated in an earlier post that the truck had backfired, so the assumption is that there is fire to the plugs.

The point gap is important, it must be correct. The primary lead wire...the wire from the key to the coil should be on the little post with a + on it.

Your tester should/might have a DC voltage setting as well the AC voltage setting. Sometimes these are depicted as two squiggly lines for AC and two straight lines for DC.

This thing should go tonight..don't give up.

Stuart

I would assume you have new points and condensor.

I remember having a few bad condensors that were brand new.

Turn the ignition on and with an insulated screwdriver, move the points open and closed. Obviousely it should spark with the ignition switch in the run position. If you look at the spark at the points when you open them, is it a brilliant flashy blue? If so, you might want to try a new condensor.

Boy builder you got that right I have seen more bad condensers out of the box than on the cars.

How would you tell that a condenser is bad by taking it out of the box and looking at it.

I have seen this stated many times on this site, and have never understood what it meant.

Although I haven't installed hundreds of condensers, of those I have stuck in, all have worked. I wonder why the poor little condenser always gets the bad press.

Stuart

Well it ain't that you can tell it's bad untill you put it on and it won't start. It is also the hardest thing to diagnose. After all you did just put on a new one.

Stuart,

Thought I'd clarify a few things before I stomp the starter. I tested the "old" plugs against the frame and it zapped off the side of the thread rather than at the gap. Anyway, I've set the new ones in.

I think the cause of the heat can be explained by leaving the key on start for several minutes with the points closed. Anyway the coil is clearly marked battery and distributor at the terminals.

I didn't remove the carb, just the fuel line. But I've taken your advice and just won't deal with the starter fluid and reconnect it.

Batteries got a full charge, everythings clamped down

I think I'm all set. The only questions are what I should set the carb fuel mixture screw at(I've got it at 1 turn off closed), use the choke, and how much throttle?

Builder, I tested the spark at the point gap. It was a small, crisp, white spark. Nothing flashy, noisy, or bluish. Is that good? Cap, rotor, condensor, pts.; all new.

Thanks again for all the tid bits everyone. Keep you posted!

Kyle

Kyle,

Countdown to liftoff. Your carburetor idle screw adjustment is OK. The shade tree standard is usually one and a half turn out.

I think I would try to start it just as if it were sitting in the driveway after a nights rest.

If it backfires and flames, just hit the starter again and suck the mess into the engine...it will extinguish it.

If absolutely nothing happens, pull a plug and see if it is wet. We're crossing our fingers!

You did gap the new plugs....right!

Stuart

No Go :confused: Ran through all the points discussed in this and two other of my posts to see if I've missed anything. I think I've got it all set. It just won't fire. The only thing I'm concerned about is the carburetor.

I put new gaskets in it and cleaned/blew all the passages out. The seat/needle/float were all inspected and seem to be ok. I'm getting a gas leak at the throttle plate connections on the outside of the casting. There is an insulator between the carb and the manifold that didn't have a gasket and I didn't have an extra one. I'm getting a little leak there too. I don't think I'm getting a fine mist but a dribble that pools in the intake manifold. Spark plugs don't appear to be wet.

When I do crank it I get a loud suction sound when the carb. lever is pushed to the dash or closed.

Battery drains to 50% after a couple 2 10 sec. cranks, for what its worth.

So that's how it stands for now. Thoughts at this point?

Kyle

Fuel at the throttle plate (FLOODED). ain't gonna fire if flooded.
You said you put in new gaskets on the carb., did you buy a kit? If you bought a kit why did you not replace the needle and seat? DOHHH!!!
Charge battery, have tested (2-10 sec. uses ain't normal)
Block off fuel to carb., remove plugs (do they smell like fuel), open throttle plate (WFO), with charged and tested or new optima 6V battery (if bad), spin the engine over, (we are clearing the fuel from the motor) When the battery begins to weaken, stop and recharge, leave the throttle open. If the plugs smelled of fuel or were wet with fuel you might as well go get some new ones. They don't dry out very well.
Before we do this again we need to address the carb. problem. These carbs. are a snap to o/h but you know your machanical abilities better than I. Have it overhauled or replace it. I would replace the float if you do the job your self (it won't come with the kit).
While the carb. is off spin the engine over a few more times. Look in the intake is it still wet? If no put the carb. on and install the new plugs.
Recharge the battery and lets cross our fingers and try again.

Oh and yes there is a carb. spacer or insulator.

Kyle,

Starting with unknowns it real tough. The problems with the carburetor are not normal. It should not be leaking and dripping fuel.

My concern is that somewhere in the dripping fuel is a ratio of 15:1 which would surely have been pulled into the engine, and should have popped or snorted.

It isn't a complicated mechanism. If it has any fuel, spark and a semblance of compression, it should make some noise.

The important thing is that it has to happen at the right time.

Maybe the carburetor is just TOO out of whack. Have you ever operated the throttle as you peeked down the throat to see if the accelerator pump was squirting fuel...it should do this.

If the carburetor is so bad it isn't mixing or squirting, you could do the starting fluid drill just to see it you are getting ignition.

If you could confirm the plugs are actually firing and timing is close, the carburetor could then be properly addressed.

This all sounds like a Chinese Fire Drill, but sometimes this is how you have to approach several unknowns.

I know this won't soothe your spirit, but if everything is right, the truck will run.

Keep at it.

Stuart

Does it just crank? Do you get any pops? Do you get any smoke out the tail pipe?

Anyone close enough to him to go take a peek?

Actually I took the carburetor off a few days back and cleaned it out the best I could. I had some "cut your own" gasket material which I used. This did stop the leaks at the top of the bowl. But there was never one at the bottom of the insulator.

I'm currently getting a hold of a different carburetor that is easier/cheaper to overhaul. That's why I was hoping the current carb could be cleaned sastisfactorly enough to get a fire.

Like Atomarc is guessing, I'm just trying to get everything close enough to get it to run.

The battery is brand new.

While I wait for a better carb. I'll play around with all the variables and everyones input. There is enough goood knowledge on this post that I should get it to fire eventually.

I'll give you a report when I get some better results. Thanks again,

Kyle

641Workmaster:

The spark you described should be good.

If you flood the engine, just hold the throttle wide open and crank for a while. That will push it all out the exhaust. On a truck that is running and floods when trying to start, don't let off the gas until the truck starts. And don't pump it.

Somebody got a carb that they know is in running order to give this guy so we can get the carb question out of the way?

Maybe I missed it reading this thread but, have you run a compression check on this engine? If so what were the numbers on each cylinder?

Kyle
Never assume the battery is in good condition because it is new. Charge it and have it checked. 2, 10 second turns of the key causing a 50% power loss in the battery ain't good. It might not be the battery but seems like an excessive loss.
Builder is correct in his discripion of clearing a flooded engine. But if it is washed with fuel (standing fuel in the intake) you might have to take it a step further as I earlier discribed.
Your leaking carb. is probably due to a bad needle and seat or float and float setting. The needle on the needle and seat has a sealing tip that should never be touched (so they say) by fingers. I have fingered them before and didn't have bad results. I was never able to clean one that was bad and make it work again.
As automarc has pointed out, got the right amount of spark, fuel, compression and the timing is close it will run. It may not run well but it will run.
It is still my best guess as a 37 year vetran in automotive repair, that you have flooded your engine to the point of saturation and it will require more than just holding it to the floor and cranking.
I could be wr-wro-wron mistaken. lol

Apex - the highest point(of something);"at the peak of the pyramid".

If the points were gapped at the apex that is a problem.

If the points are gapped at .08 that is a problem.

Oilrag, I was wondering if somebody would catch that.

Your right! the point gap was missing a 1, that's a large gap. Should have been .018"

By "apex" I meant the cam follower resting on the "peak" of the cam when regapping (per manual)I should probably be a little more techniacal next time.

Kyle

Kyle, it seems that your battery if new pulls down to quickly. What size battery cables are you using?? If they are 12volt cables they are to small and you need to replace them with the proper cables. Most tractor supplys have the proper size for a 6volt system. You need to solve one problem at a time. Start with the battery, cables, ignition wire to coil, coil, condenser, points, condenser,and timming it doesn't have to be perfect to start just close, once running you can fine tune. When known good go to the next item, fuel, fuel pump, carberator, these engines aren't rocket science. You will get it, don't loose hope.

The books says .020 to .022 for proper gap. And do yourself a favor, put some grease not much on the apex of the distributor cam so the rubbing block on the points doesn't wear out and/or squeak. No more grease than will fill this smilley face on a small screwdriver to dab it on there.