The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 59 Apache Hotrod??

I haven't seen many posts about horsepower enhancements and I knw many like to keep it original as I can not hate that, but I would like to custmize my truck old school muscle and maybe eventually get to 400 RWHP at some point, not too much but just enough if you get my drift. Any suggestions andy posts any ideas?

Using what engine?

Try "The HiPo Shop" forum located right under this forum. That is the palce to hang for what you want to do, whether modern HiPo or ol' skool.

There are plenty of hotrods out there. Look to see what others have done, and copy what you like. I don't know anything about your apache, but I tend to lean more torward the stock look and appearance.

On my 1959 gmc 1/2 ton longbed, the original v8 was a pontiac v8 that was rated for about 200 hp. I replaced it with a 1959 pontiac 389 that I had bored and stroked to 447 inches. I used a 1957 pontiac tripower manifold I had sitting around. This motor was a direct bolt in replacement for the original motor. I built this motor for 325-350 HP, and a lot of low end torque. The factory rear which was totally rebuilt lived for about 30 miles behind this engine. The transmission is a NV4500 5 speed and the rear is now a floating 9 inch with the 6 lug hubs. I have 12 inch disc brakes on the original straight axle, and 11 inch disc in the rear.

I know what you are thinking... why didn't I use a camaro or mustang II front clip? My GMC had the very rare Power Steering option. I would not want to lose that. Also I use my truck as a truck. I don't believe the camaro/MII trucks are able to carry a load, but others might argue that point.

If your truck is restorable, you might want to restore it. there are plenty of hotrod trucks already built that can be had for shorter money than building one.

Wrench with a 350. I was just told in the HIPO forum that why wuld I need or want that much HP that not even 600 HP crank engines will lay that much down. I know little about older cars and HP performance, but I know it is not uncommon to see 450RWHP on new model chargers as my own, so i figured my Apache could accomplish the same just wanted ideas on how best way to get there. If this figure is unreasonable what is a safe and logical RWHP I could establish with a 350 engine and a 700r4.

Big bad great points and trust me I hear it all the time from my family how great of a shape the truck is in and too keep it all original. NOw i dont plan to do many body modifications but I love speed and even though i know the importance of restoring and value it truly isnt what I want. I plan to keep this truck and pass it on, but not somuch for the value but the awesome body and style that it offers. Again priority is speed over value. One day I may/will regret not keeping original 283 and 3 speed but for now IM enjoying tinckering with truck and making it my very own with hopefully more umphhhh.

Those of us that have experience working on older vehicles could put a 500HP big block in a Nash Rambler if we felt the need and/or had the funds. What you have to consider is what other factors are involved. These trucks were designed for a purpose of utility and have a straight axle, drum brakes, and a high roll center. Not exactly the best combination for speed. I have a 56 3100 which has a stock 350, 3 speed OD trans, power disc brakes, and Toyota power steering. This combination works well but it certainly has it's limitations. It depends on your pocket book what other mods you plan to do to upgrade the steering, suspension, and brakes. Just putting a large engine in something is not necessarily going to make it better.
Fred

If you don't have experience building high horsepower motors I'd suggest investigating the crate motor options. Pick up any hot rod oriented magazine and shop the ads.

600 horse is a lot of power but can be bought easily if you have the money. A 700r4 in stock trim isn't up to that much, but again modified versions just cost money. If you have a $20,000 budget for the engine and transmission swap the horsepower part is easy.

But look at the cars that come with that kind of power rating and think about the safety features including brakes. The brakes on your '59 are woefully inadequate for the kind of power you're talking about.

Your first step should be to make sure you are not going to kill yourself or someone I care about. Please look into making the suspension work work and to adding excellent and adequate brakes before dropping 600 horse under the hood.

Good points and all part of my goals. Guys this is not a few year project this is a work in progress that will go one for many many many years so I have timeand patience. Every step will be a milestone thats what makes customizing vehicles great. Thanks for all the good points and thoughts.

rfs is straight axle a bad thing in a hot rod? what about high roll center what sorts of things can I do to better this if they are negatives? Again patience and not as much amoney is available, the money end well you pick up a part here you salvage that you input this thats the fun again in customizing not buying new parts and finishing the job, trial and error, salvage parts, free parts etc.. will do just as good a job and will bring a bigger smile to my face. This is my hobby asit is for you guys as well. Just trying to get ideas i.e. "look for a a nova rear end that is tougher rear; "get disc brakes" and this is what i suggest"; get a beefier tranny such as blah blah blah". any suggestions are really appreciated. thank you again.

That 450 horse you're after is awfully different in a TF than a late model car. With a straight axle, these trucks drive like.....a truck. Very easy to get into trouble and not get out of it before it's too late. Can you build an engine and drop it in that will meet that number? Yes, easy. But it won't likely be enjoyable. Especially if you're pulling it out of a 350 cubic inch engine. That puts it to probably 500-525 horse at the crank, assuming a manual transmission. That's 1.5 hp per cube. Figure idle speed will be 1000 rpm, don't expect to drive it below 2500 honestly, even light throttle, it will buck and stumble, it will require lots of tuning to get dialed in properly, be high maintnance, and drink lots of gas.

I'd build something more moderate, focus on torque and low speed power, regardless of engine size. That will give you the seat of the pants feel you're after without breaking the bank, and be much more enjoyable to drive in an old truck.

Devin

Well, since you already have a 283 in there, why not drive it. A lot of projects get off to big starts... I'm gonna change the engine, trans, rear, etc. And a couple years after they have been taken apart, you find them on craigslist, still in pieces.

Why not drive your truck the way it is and enjoy it, and do smaller projects to improve the drivabilty.

First thing to do is make sure the brakes are in good working order. If they aren't, that should be your first project. Power disc brake conversions that work with the straight axle start at about $700. Be honest with yourself in what your needs are. You can easily spend $500 to get the stock 4 wheel drums in working order, so spending a little bit more here might pay off.
Next, find the engine and transmission and rear end you want to use. You can use your truck to pick these items up and take them to a machine shop for rebuilding. So having your truck running is a plus. You might swap out the rear end one weekend, and then do the engine and transmission in another.

My point is don't tear the truck apart untill you are absolutely ready to, as they tend to sit and lose parts.

John

I love it great points again from both Big bad and 55 ractor. 55 you brought up something i did not think about, so much HP on a "truck" old truck at that. Maybe I am pushing for a lot, wonder how much the 283 puts out now? if i could increase that by say 50-70% i would be a happy camper. Nd yes i replaced the drum brakes already with well yeah drum brakes but only because cylinder was out so for now remained with drum brakes all the way around changed out wheel cylinders all the way around switched out master cylinder and shoes all for about $370 installed and yes next step wouldd be discs. So I guess I should stray away from this predetermined 450RWHP wish for and focus on trying to find ojut how much HP i get now from my 283 and try to increase by 50% any guesses?

try to increase by 50%

Making the same mistake with the smaller engine.

why guess? wouldn't it be better to get some books and learn about what you've got and what's possible with a small block before fantasizing about goals? or maybe you should pick the brains over at the HAMB

a friend here built a 427 for his 55 - not likely it puts anywhere close to 400hp on the ground, but it'll pull the front wheels, and I can tell you it doesn't take much of that to trash bearings and break spindles ... what's the point? certainly doesn't make for a daily driver, especially the way gas prices are going

a stock 283 would be rated @ 195hp max depending on the year ... which will spin tires and blow transmissions, u-joints, and rear gears that are not 100% ... good luck increasing it to 300 - and getting more than 1/2 that to the ground in an old truck

Bill

The point I was trying to make and from what has been posted by others is to stay within what is reasonable, safe, and to some degree economical. My truck has been a reliable driver for the last 14 years and still has the power to cruise on the freeways at a safe speed. If I was to build another one it would probably have an independent suspension with disc brakes, a late fuel injected engine, and an OD auto trans. Lots of things can be done to these old vehicles to make them perform better depending on what is important to an individual. I work on a number of original cars and trucks for other people and they love them the way they are.
Fred

Another option for hotrodding an old truck, would be get a different truck. Starting in the mid-60's Chevy started to have more of a modern suspension on the trucks. My brother has a 66' and it has coil springs all the way around and IFS. That's all stock. He installed disc's all around and has a 350 sbc that has bored out .060 over, with a Camaro 6-speed(Tremec? I think) behind it. He has towed with it and can certainly haul some butt in it aswell.

My point would be finding a different truck that has some of the good things for safety and speed already in it, is a viable option.

Just a comment. I am doing the project to a 58. I picked up a crate engine, stock 350. The top end, manifold, holley carb,
new ignition ,headers, and the front pulleys and pumps This package is about $4500. A rebuilt th350 that a guy needed to sell for $400. Power steering and tilt wheel $1000. The new radiator, new gas tank, all new brakes, new spring shackles and bolts, shocks, windows, door seals,etc $2000. I still need a drive shaft. The body work and paint about $1500. Interior seats, sound system, heater motor and core, rewiring, $1000.
Rims and tires $1000.Rebuild the bed $1000. This should make a good old driver That is save @ 70mph. I have done all the work and my labor is cheap. The cost so far is about $12.5K.
This still ain't close to a 400hp+ hotrod that runs 100mph+.
I can buy a hotrod that is safer and faster than this "old stovebolt" for less money.
I would recommend building a good running "OLD TRUCK" and buy a "hotrod".
"Build it and love it, buy it and race it.

I truly appreciate all the good comments. The whole point is to pick peoples minds in order to grab ideas from those that have either already done or know how to do it. Some responses have been n the extreme haha which is fine because I know there are different camps (hardcore camps) about not messing a good old truck up. Well I hope by the additions that I will end up making throughout time will make this great old truck even better thats all. Whatever I do end up doing it will be Safe, and reliable. I like the comment that one of you guys made about low end torque your absolutely right that is what I am after not a 100 MPH vehicle or anything close to that I know the limits, so I will take all these good points as a starting point.

I just reread my post (second to last) and realized how it could be read to mean that I would stupidly try to gain 50% more HP from a 283 hahahaahah. Sorry guys I was thinking out loud and failed to provide my thoughts on paper What I meant was if the 283 puts down say 180 RWHP, then I would try to increase that (WITH ANOTHER ENGINE) by 50% total 270rwhp or so. I will get books and I will gain knowledge and I hope you guys dont stop posting tips or thoughtsto this cause i do absorb that as well, thanks

forget the R, a 283 will have 165-195 bhp without the loss in power from the differential, trans, alternator, water pump, and things like power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc .... the currently used SAE net hp takes account of the accessories, but not the driveline - you can find lots of 300hp small block variations, once you figure out how to get whatever you can afford up front, then worry about finding a dyno to see what you're getting to the ground

try some "how to" books about small or big block Chevies, the old HP Books by Dave Vizard are good if you can find them

Bill

I wouldn't even bother with a small block. The easiest way to get the power range you want with no bad habits for a heavy truck is a Cadillac 472 or 500. Find a low miles JY, don't even rebuild it. Cost of speed equipment: zero.

I like the Cadillac idea. I'm putting a Cadillac 500 in my '54 GMC with a TH400. Massive power at very low cost in a strong reliable package.

Not the most conventional approach but I believe perfect for my purposes.