The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Tons 'o Fun Gas or Diesel in a modified 1-ton

Okay I surfaced some strongly held opinions with my automatic versus manual question. Lets keep this friendly, but I'd like to know which you prefer, gas or Diesel, and why.

This question is about 1-ton trucks, not cars, not medium or heavy duty trucks, just 1-ton trucks.

Those who have been around a while know I'm a gas guy. I've spent some time thinking about why and I think it comes down to a short list:

1) I resent the noise the Diesel powered milk truck makes early in the morning and don't want to hear it again when I get in my own truck. And yes I've been hearing it that long.

2) I prefer the sound of a big gas V-8 to that of a Diesel. This is different than the first, as its more about what the gas motor sounds like. I love the roar of a big V-8. Muffled of course.

3) I've spent very little time working on Diesel motors and all of that more than 25 years ago. I'm more comfortable working on a gas motor.

4) While a Diesel can make a lot of torque, it has a relatively narrow torque band (limited by max RPM) and requires a lot of shifting to stay in it. A big gas motor can have a wide torque band and reduce the amount of shifting required to pull hard. This makes for smoother operation and makes sense to me.

5) I'd rather smell burned gasoline than burned Diesel. I'm not sure where that preference comes from, but its mine and I claim it.

6) I'm not convinced by the economies associated with Diesels. My math says the total cost of ownership is about the same in most cases. You almost always spend more to own and maintain a Diesel which offsets the savings on fuel.


I had a longer list in mind when I started this, but got interrupted by a neighbor letting me know our community well has died. An hour messing with that drove the other thoughts out of my head and replaced them with a 'what is this going to cost' that has nothing to do with old trucks....

So I won't say I'll never own a Diesel, I have penciled out the economics a couple times considering it an option, but the purely subjective part, which would I prefer, comes down to gasoline power.

How about you? Gasoline or Diesel? And why?

I went to the dark side when diesel fuel cost was considerably less that gas and I truly loved my Cummins powered Dodge. Before that real truck I had owned a diesel powered Toyota Pickup in my younger days which was a gutless wonder but it got nearly 50 mpg. I sold that little truck for more than I paid for it after putting 150k additional miles on it. The maintenance of the Dodge was a real killer, seems like anytime something went wrong it was a minimum $1000. After the diesel fuel costs equalled out and surpassed the gasoline prices it was cheaper to run my gas powered suburban so I sold the Dodge. If the suburban breaks I can fix it myself.

As far as what you get out of what you got, my choice would not only be a Gasoline version, but a 292-6 Cylinder Chevy. Great performance, a lot of torque, good economy, very easy to work on and inexpensive parts. ...and especially with a straight thru muffler, sound good to boot.

I like Diesels in a 1-Ton, but would not buy one without having a thick wallet and would buy it more for novelty more than anything. I am familiar with the expense when things break. Also agree that over all I don't think you save much at best, if not costing more, compared to a gas engine.

I do like the sound of a Diesel better and don't mind the diesel smell, but also agree that a V-8 gas can sound great too with especially with a modified exhaust system. Also as far as noise goes, well I'm an 'ol 2-Stroke Detroit fan, so I don't think I will need to go into details there, lol. As far as the shifting goes, you shift a lot with a Detroit, so well I probably won't have to go into details there either!

But to sum it up, right now anyway, it would definitely be a Gas engine.

Bill

I really like diesels, who would have guessed?
I like the better mileage, lots of torque, long life.

Not all diesels are simple, but Detroits which I've come to like more and more are extremely simple to work on, parts are easy to get, and cheap as far as diesel parts go, which is not that bad.
A complete new fuel system; pump, injectors, and all only cost about $260 for a 4 cylinder Detroit.

Yes they take more oil to change and a couple fuel filters, but that's not troublesome.

I don't care for the smell of unburned diesel much, (or gas for that matter) but one running well and not left idling avoids the smell and is a good thing in it's self.

The extra noise is not great, but something to live with for all the other benefits, and a Detroit does sound good.

No points, plugs, or wires to mess with, in fact I don't even have a battery in my truck yet, and it still starts and drives around.

If you like manual you don't mind shifting, and if you like an automatic shifting is not a problem. So the way I see it the narrower power band and generally lower RPM is not a problem.

At least that's my opinion.

Grigg

Grigg,

As you know I like Detroits, but seeing that he stated "1-Ton" I hesitated to say Detroit in a 1-Ton truck. I've been kind of on the fence about putting a 3-53 or especially a 4-53 in one because of the weight. Then there's the option of an Aluminum Detroit, which would weigh a lot less, but I'm not quite yet real sure about the Aluminum engine. I would actually try to stay away from one, but would possibly consider it because of the weight factor only.

What is your opinion of a Detroit in a 1-Ton?

I hope no one take this as a hi-jack. I figure it is good conversation about 1-Tons and Diesels.

Bill

I have a 1993 Dodge 3/4 ton 4x4 Cummins Turbo Diesel. If I had to sell all of my trucks (5) except for one, I would keep my Dodge.

It will run on waste vegetable oil that I get for free from restaurants.
When I change my oil, I can pour the old oil into a full tank of diesel and it will burn my waste oil.
It will do almost everything that I could need a truck to do.

Would I put a diesel in my 47/8 GMC 1 ton? I don't know, maybe.
For me, for now, the old 228 is good enough. I'd rather switch to a 270 or 302 GMC, staying in the period and GMC.

I was thinking about that after I submitted my thoughts too.
A 4-53 really is on the large side for a 1 ton, and was never a factory option in a 1 ton.
However, I owned one Chevy 1 ton pickup with a 4-53, so now that I think about it my comments still have merit in this discussion. And I had a F350 with a 6V53 Detroit, which is pretty much overkill for a 1 ton.

About Detroit's in pickups... I think a 4-53 or 4-53T deserves at least a 3/4 ton, preferably a 1 ton. I think a 3-53 will get by in a 3/4 ton, might be OK in a 1 ton, and a 3-53T would obviously be better in either.
About aluminum Detroits, the only ones you'll easily find are the aluminum block 3-53 from a Gama Goat. If I had a free one in good shape I'd probably put it in something, but if I had to buy a 3-53 I'd pick an iron one over an aluminum one, and a turbo if at all possible. Nothing really wrong with them, but not outstanding or special in my mind, and it's not that much weight savings.
As far as I can tell they never made an aluminum 4-53.

Grigg

What about the weight of a Diesel?

With a 1-ton truck you have a limited GVWR of more than 8,000 but probably less than 12,000 pounds.

Working within the specs of my current project the issue looks like this to me. '54 GMC 1-ton with GVWR of 8800. With my upgraded rear axle and disk brakes on the front it may handle a little more, but I don't see a reasonable way to prove that to an inspector and don't see any change coming on the serial number plate.

I believe my Cadillac 500 with TH400 actually weighs less than the GMC 248/SM420 combination it replaces. The motor and trans together will be right at 700 pounds provided I actually do order the aluminum intake that drops 30 or 40 pounds while adding hp and torque.

The only weight numbers I recall for Diesel motors appropriate to a 1-ton are the 4BT at 745 pounds. That puts just the motor at more than my complete engine/trans combination. I've heard that the 6BT is maybe 1100 pounds but I'm not as confident of that number. I have no idea what the smaller Detroits weigh.

So compared pound for pound the 4BT is less horsepower and less torque per pound, and weighs enough it reduces my legal payload. I realize the 4BT and other Diesels can be modified to make more power, but so can my Cadillac or other gas motors that might be used in this comparison.

Do you agree that a high power Diesel comes at the cost of payload capacity in the context of a 1-ton truck? Or is there a trade off that turns it into an advantage I've ignored?

Until you both increase the power and start pulling a heavy trailer I don't think there is one. The Diesel advantage is clear to me in a MDT or HDT but for my old GMC 1-ton I'm not seeing an advantage.

Older diesels weigh more than a comparable gas engine, but newer ones are closing in on that gap. For a new pickup the diesel over gas decision based on weight is not a big concern, yes weighs a little more, but not a problem.

I agree that "a high power Diesel comes at the cost of payload capacity" because it is simple math, the drivetrain weighs X amount, and the GVW fixed by axles, springs, tires, frame and so on. So if the engine weighs more then payload is decreased.
However I do think this trade off has some advantages you've ignored. Back to torque, fuel economy, and overall load handling ability. From my experience the diesel handles the same weight a little better than a gas engine.
Now at this point I expect you'll bring up the big cubic inch gas engines as being comparable, and for power yes I agree, but not for fuel economy.

Now what you plan to do with the truck makes all the difference, if you drive to shows and putt around town a gas engine would be fine. If you haul occasionally gas is still a good choice. But if you like long road trips and often tow heavy things then diesel is a good choice.

For my 52 1 ton pickup I've done a multi thousand mile road trip with a 235, it was fun. Looking back had I known about the Cummins 4BT or had the knowledge/ability to swap one at that point I'm sure I would have liked it better. A little more HP (accommodates faster gears to then travel faster), more torque, better mileage, longer range between fill ups..
Now that I'm getting closer to putting that truck back on the road I'm not sure what to do. I'll probably put up with the 235 for a while longer. The 4BT is an attractive option suited for my intended use of the truck, but realistically a 3-53T Detroit is probably my answer. Might not be the better choice, but it is what I'm familiar with and what I already have a bunch of parts and components for, I think even the right stuff to make a bolt in swap with a 54 model transmission crossmember.

Grigg

Agreed.

The right Diesel for an application pretty much always burns less fuel than the right gasoline burner. If I remember correctly there is significantly more energy per gallon in Diesel than gasoline.

Since there is more to the operation of a vehicle than filling the fuel tank I do not agree that burning less fuel to do the same work always results in more economical operation.

Agreed again.

I've modeled my own usage in Excel a couple times, both to support my decisions on my current project, and when I briefly considered a new 1-ton a few years ago.

On my current project it would take ten years for the savings in fuel to justify what I estimated a 6BT would cost over the Cad 500. And at least one of the assumptions was a real risky one; assuming the relative cost of gasoline and Diesel stay the same.

I've seen Diesel swing way high in the past few years and can't say with confidence that it won't again cost far more than premium gasoline.

A second iffy assumption was that I could buy a 6BT as cheap as some had said they did in other forums. I only looked for maybe a week but did not find any in my region for less than $5,000. The only cheap old Dodge pickups I could find were motor-less.

I hope to be driving this current project 20 years from now, but a ten year financial model along with my bias toward big gas V-8's settled it for me.

A key factor in my model is an assumption that may be different than most others. I have enough vehicles that most of them are only driven a couple thousand miles a year. I modeled a long trip every five years and assumed only 2,000 or 3,000 miles typical annual mileage.

That factor alone is probably one of the reasons my model favors a gas powered truck.

When I looked at new trucks I believe I was comparing the 8.1 gas against a Duramax. The initial cost of the Duramax option was about $12,000 additional pushing the total cost of the proposed truck well into the 50K+ range.

My model did not justify the additional cost even assuming this would be my primary driver. And I could not stomach putting that much money into a single vehicle! Not long after the price of Diesel spiked for a while.

I like long road trips but the last time I crossed the country burning anything but kerosene was 30 years ago. That was a motorcycle trip and I averaged 63 mpg and over 55 mph including food and gas stops but excluding sleep and visit time. I only got one ticket in 6,000+ miles and that was during the National speed limit days.

I've driven a truck towing something to Colorado and back twice in the past decade. I assume I'll do it again.

That's interesting. If you are able to pull that off a lot of people will be eager to copy you.

Would that same approach work with a 4BT? I think even more people would try that. Answering my own question, since a 4BT can be found in front of a TH400 the same adapter would bolt on the bellhousing that would sit on a '54+ crossmember....

Not a project I'm likely to do, but something I'd watch with interest.

I worked for a Line Building Co. for to many years and we had a fleet of over 1,000 trucks about 250 were 3/4-1 ton 4X4's and the equiptment manager told me after much research that you would have to drive 150,000 miles just to justify the additional cost of the diesel enging option, that was early 94 well before the jump in diesel prices. Wonder what his numbers would reveal tod . As with any tool the diesel's have their place but not for every day driving around, Pulling or hauling a load building some heat in them and getting down the road they are great, driving around town start and stop driving or going 10 miles to work seems in my opion a waste of a good engine.

My reply,
1. Noise to the neighbors: I like that noise, make that noise and won't claim to be anybody's friend in this respect. Of course I am hard of hearing and would not have a gaser without loud exhaust, rumble rumble on engine brake.
2. Noise of the engine: Yeah, I miss that sexy throaty sound of a build SBC getting it on. In the cab of 2002 and newer diesels one doesn't hardly hear a thing from the engine. Outside my 2002 Cummins is LOUD next to a newer Duramax or Powerstroke, but in the cab not so. Mash the pedal and you feeeel the acceleration, not hear it.
3. Working on: I'm no expert on either, but cut my teeth on pre-computer SBC. I've had to learn diesels since moving to the farm. I would rather learn the diesel computer tech than for the new gas engines. You can get a diesel as new as '98 that is non-computer but not gas. In fact I have both a LS1 and a 02 Cummins available for donor to the 65 one ton, Its the Cummins thats going in. So I best learn.
4. Torque band: Now this (I guess all of this) is subjective but I can feel the torque of the Cummins pulling 10K of hay over the rolling hills of eastern Kansas while in the gas rigs I down shift. Fuel consumption does decrease with load in diesel but not as much as in gas, it seems.
5. Smell: What smell? Ditto veg oil comments above. (I didn't know about burning engine oil though)Compare the additives and toxicity of gas to diesel. Compare the waste products in refining them. Wait a minute, I remember the smell of diesel back in the 70-80's. Seems I don't smell that until I get to a Truck Stop and the big rigs. My Cummins certainly does not have body odor.
6. Economy: That band is narrowing but in my book is not there yet. My '98 Trans Am (I transgress into cars, but they do put LS engines in one tons) with a LS1 engine has 160K miles (who would of thought that possible in the 1980s) and going strong but repair bills are close to the Cummins. The Cummins has 194K and is almost broke in, life span speaking. Ls1 gets a healthy 18 mpg at 65 mph on cruise and 5-6 mpg if you look at the gas pedal. Cummins gets 19-21 mpg at 75 with A/C blasting on cruise with up to 3000 payload and doesn't change much no matter what you do to the pedal. So until gas prices are less than half of diesel prices, diesel fuel economy wins hands down.

Another post mentions stop and go daily driving as a waste of a good diesel, not so with the newer designs. I don't argue that constant use would improve the life-span efficeincy of the diesel, I think my diesel does just fine as an around town versus on the road. I do equal amount of both. The only time I get nervous is when the temperatures drop to below -15' F and I'm not around electrical power. Seems that I read that at Chosin Reservoir in 1950 in Korea, they left the jeeps (gas) running for fear of not being able to get them restarted (-30-40' F).

Shifting: I like to shift. I fall asleep too easily in an automatic. I prefer the manual in snow, ice, mud, hauling and every day driving, even in stop and go traffic. Just me though.

Lastly, my new thoughts on chips. My 06 Cummins, recently bought 2nd hand with a chip (Bully ?) already in it, gets as good or better fuel milage on performance setting as on stock setting. And it will out run the LS1. Its the only time I've heard a diesel lope at idle.

But then the diesel versus gas discussion is akin to politics or religion. You are not going to convert a true believer with argument no matter how compasionately you speak, right?

I have been thinking lots and lots about this and what will be the best way to get my truck going! I know the 216 is going to have to come out... but what will go in its place.

All things equal I would love to put a diesel in the truck! It definitely would be more work and there are less bolt on parts available, but it would make it more economical to drive. But, then there is the ease of a 235 or a 261... with the assumption that one could be found with ease again!

It really does seem easier for me to just go with gas and forget about it. I am hoping that I save enough money on the original build to offset the diesel savings... but I guess we will have to see where gas and diesel power goes!

How about electric? I have been thinking a little about it.... maybe the truck is just a touch heavy, but think about a totally green stovebolt!

A truck is heavy enough to carry batteries, but you'll use up much of your cargo capacity carrying those batteries. Its a trade-off between size enough to carry the batteries and the overhead (weight) required to carry them and the weight they add directly.

I think electric power might be an interesting project, but I'd rather watch you do it than mess with it myself.

How much and how far are you going to drive this truck? If economy is your goal and you understand that both initial cost and incremental costs make up the economics, it isn't hard to model the lifetime cost.

Of course you have to make some assumptions to do that, but my solution to that problem has been to model several different assumptions regarding future fuel costs and future usage.

In my case, modeling a gasoline motor I have against a Diesel I'd have to purchase, and assuming I understand the costs of each swap, it just does not make sense to go Diesel. But a key part of that calculation is that I'm not driving this truck very far most years.

I ran the numbers first to be sure I wasn't nuts in thinking a gas motor was cheaper to do, and second to be able to speak with confidence in dialogs like this.

To someone else I'd say know how much you're going to use the truck and your cost going each way, then model the costs. If economics is your most important consideration your answer will come from the model.

Some of the others here are clearly biased toward Diesel while I'm a fan of big gasoline V-8s. Your choice between one of those or possibly electric power needs to suit your own preferences and priorities.

I think if you modeled cost of different options you'd find messing with trucks this old is not the best option, gas diesel, or whatever.
If that's the case, and even if it's not, just do what makes you happy, if you like a big or small gas engine use one, if you want a diesel run one you like, if you want something else just go for it.
If this old truck hobby and engine choice comes down to a business decision then is it really a hobby, are you still having fun and doing what you want to do just because you want to?

Grigg

I agree that messing with old trucks has to be considered a hobby, and a very expensive one at that. Since it is a hobby, we are at liberty to build what tickles our fancy. I would prefer gas in a 1 ton because I like the performance of gas. Although Diesel engines have been putting the bread on my table for 45 years doesn't mean I want to build a 1 ton Diesel. Diesels that are built in USA that are light enough to work in a 1 ton don't have the pep to suit me. It would be interesting to put an engine of European design like the Sprinter engine into a 1 ton. European commercial vehicles are almost 100% Diesel and they have the pep of our gasoline engines. I think anyone who thinks they are going to rival modern day economy with anything they build is just kidding themselves. However, I mess with my jalopies because I enjoy doing it. It makes a good diversion from running a fleet of trucks that has to run in order to pay the bills.

I agree that old trucks are a hobby and that thinking in terms of profiting on them isn't realistic for most people. But to consider economic impacts in deciding which way to proceed on a project only makes sense for any of us with a finite amount of money.

Because modeling the financial impact of projects has been a significant part of my career and because I actually get a kick out of being able to 'see further' in doing it, I probably go too far on some of my projects.

When one of the two most common arguments I hear advocating Diesel motors is economics I feel it's appropriate to respond with an economic model. Especially when that model shows some of the supposed savings are an illusion.

One model I did and then ignored was comparing buying a finished truck against building a shop to build my own truck. It came out the way my wife expected: we could have bought a couple of very nice trucks for less than I spent building my shop.

But to me one of the most rewarding parts of the hobby is doing it myself, and that requires a place to work. It also consumed enough capital that I have to consider a little more carefully what I spend on the projects because I spent so much money on the place to do it.

Yes I can sell the shop someday and recover what I spent on it, probably at a higher rate than any of the money spent directly on trucks, and maybe even at a gain, but that financial transaction is meaningless to me because I intend to die owning a shop.

While it does not make real economic sense when you look at the finished projects, what I've bought is the opportunity to experience the did it myself satisfaction. And that was worth the money to me.