The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 1954 4400 front disc brakes?

Heya folks. Sorry for being so scarce and out of touch here. Work has has me tied up relentlessly. But I had a question about the front wheel assemblies for my '54 4400 truck. Can anyone tell me what can I use to swap the old, huge (and hopelessly shot) drum brake setup to a disc brake setup? I want to keep the straight axle but the drums are history, and since Im making a hot rod, I want front disc brakes. Is anything compatible with the original spindles? From what it appears, the holes in the ends of the axle aren't any bigger than a regular passenger truck from the same generation. I have seen front disc brake conversion kits for the passenger trucks, but not the big heavy duty trucks. Will one of these work for mine?

Some insight would be MOST appreciated. Thanks in advance folks.

Here's the solution I like so far, although it's not easy.
I'm continually searching for an easy way and haven't found one yet, and even if there is an "easy" way it may not be any better that what I've done so far.

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/bigbolts/p30swap/

Grigg

Like Grigg I've not seen a good easy solution for the bigger trucks. His axle swap may be your best bet.

If you come up with something else please be sure to share it here!

Yeah I saw that and researched it well, the only issue is that it would still be a big bolt wheel setup, which I dont wanna do.

Are the front axles different on the big trucks than the passenger trucks? I've seen a late 40's Advanced Design front axle and they look the same (to me anyway), just a difference in the amount of springs. I should probably take a closer look though.

And believe me, if I can find a solution, you folks will be the first to know.

EDIT:

Upon closer inspection, Im wondering if a smaller wheel will fit that setup or not. What do you guys think?

I don't follow?
What are you trying to accomplish then?

Grigg

OK,
No, the only wheels available for the 5/10 lug on 7.25" circle are the 20", 19.5", the 22.5" wheels.

You can get some low profile tires on the 19.5" wheels, I think they look small and a little silly on a 1.5 or 2 ton truck though.

If you want even smaller wheels then their is an 8 lug version of the same I-beam axle from a P30 and they use 16" dual wheels.

Grigg

I believe swapping a 1-ton front axle onto a 1-1/2 truck would be possible. The spring pads and spring widths match. Actually all the specs match, including the dimensions of the axles on 3/4-, 1- and 1-1/2 ton trucks. So swapping the whole axle may not be necessary.

Since the spindle diameters match this suggests the real difference in load rating is the brakes not the axle AND that the 1-ton dually hubs would swap onto the standard 1-1/2 ton axle. Optioned 1-1/2 ton and 2-ton trucks have a larger axle and larger spindles.

Check my facts here.

However the disk swaps for a 1-ton are not kits, but rather DIY projects that have been described by a couple of others on the web. The most successful looking ahve been based on 3/4-ton Dodge disks. I'd prefer a heavier brake in this application though for all I know Dodge runs the same disk on 1-ton trucks as 3/4-ton. I know in some years Chevy did or does.

On the front you loose some load capacity and possibly some braking capacity. You are also now running 8-lug wheels.

Swap a 10,000 pound Dana 70HD or GM 14-bolt under the rear and you might have a workable total solution with matching 8-lug hubs.

I may have missed something important here...

But I also have an old 4400 out back, some unused dually hubs and a Dana 70HD so I'm tempted to play this game with it.

Grigg: Your thoughts?

On what exactly?
It seems a workable solution if it suits your needs? A 1 ton longer wheelbase but looks like a bigger truck?
Are you thinking of the dual wheel hub and dodge disc brake conversion up front to go with an 8 lug Dana rear all in a 4400?

One thing that really stands out to me at truck shows when looking at big bolts with different axles and chassis under them is how do they sit? Usually the wheels are either way small for the big fender opening, occasionally not even in the center of the opening, and more often than not hanging outside of the fenders. You'll probably avoid most of that, but check into the tire size and appearance if it bothers you.
I suppose none of those things are really problems, but to me they all distract from a good looking truck, my eye is drawn automatically to the stuff that doesn't look proper..

My goal with these modifications is to accomplish what I want with modern stuff but appear stock from the outside.

Grigg

True, can be done as simple as that. the axle I have under my 2 ton I first put under the 1 ton.

As for rear, the spring pad center to center distance is a total of 1/2" wider on a 1.5 and 2 ton than a 1 ton truck. It's a function of 2" or 2.5" springs and the little 1/2" thick spacers in the shackles and spring hangers.

Grigg

The initial engineering. Any big holes in this approach that might make it a bad way to go? I'm not so worried about the appearance side as I have other ideas to deal with that.

My post began as searching for a solution to someone else's question and turned into ideas on approach to one of my own.

Since posting I've been continuing to think about my own projects and how this approach might advance them. The 4400 out back has really just been a parts truck in my mind.

I have a '47 5000 (AD COE) where this approach could be what gets it on the road sooner. Some of the assumptions have to be different, and I'm liking the mental picture. But I am beginning to see moving that body to a '54 1-ton frame instead of the axle swaps. I'm currently off work disabled. I have lots of time to think crazy thoughts and little else I can do...


FYI: A '72 C20 and C30 (single wheel) both use the same brake rotor and the same is true for a '90 Dodge W250 and W350.

I checked those years because I'm using '72 Chevy stuff on my 1-ton and if memory serves it was about '90-ish Dodge stuff that others have used to convert the dually front to disks.

Get rid of the big wheels and brakes for a "passenger sized" setup. I have no need for the heavy duty wheels and brakes which are destroyed anyway. I have a 31 spline Ford 9 inch rear end I purchased for really cheap, so the rear end is taken care of for the most part. Now I just need to balance everything out.

A Ford 9 inch is not big enough for a real truck. Plus the brakes that come with it won't be up to the job.

Are you making other changes to the frame and suspension?

You can cut down the truck so it won't ever carry a load, but a 4400 came long enough for a 12 foot bed and designed to stop a total of 14,000 pounds. Empty with no bed this truck weighs about 4,100 pounds.

Changing to passenger car stuff without making changes that limit how much you can load on the truck creates a dangerous situation.

While the 9 inch was used under stuff that might weigh empty about the same, it was never used in anything designed to gross what a 4400 can carry.

What are you planning to do with this truck?

There's a little more to making a big truck small than just wheels and tires.
If you want a baby truck you will probably be better off finding one to start with.

Grigg

I'm definitely not using it as a hauler, I'm turning it into a rat rod.

So how about some description of what you're doing and maybe some links to pictures?

We tend to think trucks are for hauling here in the Big Bolts area, but with more information might be quite a bit more helpful.

My bet is you'll be doing a lot of your own engineering to put disks that support passenger car stuff on the front of a 4400. But now that I have a better idea your objectives I think I'd suggest a different approach.

First though I'd like to know how you are modifying the frame?

Frame is gonna be shortened a couple feet, that's all.

Heres a good example of my idea (just swap the standard rear wheels for drag wheels) a link of the progress a guy posted on
KillBillet.com (a rat rod community)

http://www.killbillet.com/showthread.php?t=18841

just scroll down through the pictures. The end result is pretty close to what I'm going for, with some minor cosmetic differences and obviously a different frame.

So far all I have done is rip the cab, front fenders, grille and hood off. My cab was hopeless and I've run into trouble finding a replacement cab around my neck of the woods, so it's put my project on hold for now.

And I'm most likely gonna need to engineer a setup for the front wheels and brakes, which is why I was asking if the front axle was the same as the lighter duty trucks, because if it is, then I can find parts to make the modifications. The only thing thats gonna be original on this truck is the front axle if possible, and the frame. I'm replacing the cab, swapping the old straight 6 for a beefed up 350, turbo 400 tranny, and the 9-inch rear end, long story short. The front wheel assemblies on my truck are shot, so in whatever form I make them, they will be gone. And I don't want the huge steel wheels and old drum brakes because that's not good for what is going to be a muscle car in a roundabout way.

I understand that folks here are all about the original purpose for these big trucks, and I would be too, but I don't need a big hauler, it's just what I happened to be able to afford/find for a rat rod project, and I apologize if I rubbed anyone the wrong way with my plans for this truck lol. This isn't a restore job. If it were I'd keep it a heavy hauler.

Well first my own philosophy is that it's your truck and you should do with it as you please. Of course I won't hesitate to tell you when I think you're making a safety mistake and may say much more. But it's still your truck and I've taken no offense.

I'm not the only person here who is also a member over at KillBillet, though I don't think there are many of us. I enjoy looking at the pictures and the ideas, but my own ideas tend to be (hopefully) a little more polished and refined. As a hot rodder I'm more of a HAMBer than a rat'r though I lean a little more modern than fits well there either.

The first comment I'll make about that guy's truck is that he started with a 1/2-ton. He started with a 116 inch wheel base while you are starting out with 164 if your 4400 is still its original length. Yours is much longer and to achive the same look you'll be taking out more than just a couple of feet.

He appears to have pushed the cab back about 1 foot, and z'd the frame both in front and behind the cab. He is using the orignial suspension in modified form, including flipping the front axle. He says more than once that it rides like a go cart and I suspect he means as harsh as one with no suspension because that's what a flipped front usually ends up driving like.

If you are looking for a replacement cab I'd suggest looking also for a lighter frame and suspension. The 1/2-ton frames just aren't that hard to come by, and would be much better suited to what you're trying to do. I know where a couple are in my area, which is Western Washington, so not close to you at all, but if they are laying around here, they are laying around there too.

The finished truck will weigh much less and thus perform better. You'll be dealing with much lighter material when modifying the frame, which may be easier, and when based on a 1/2-ton front axle, the brake conversion is easy.

You asked about disk brake swaps to start this thread off, but really your project is broader than that and is more of a HiPo forum thing than a Big Bolts thing. You might start some discusion there about z'ing and axle flipping.

I'm happy to continue the discussion around your frame mods, suspension mods, and brake mods. It helps a great deal to understand what you are trying to achive.

I'm blessed with several months off work right now and engaging in these dialogs is what is keeping me sane. So please keep asking questions and pushing the envelope. I need it!

Well, problem is being in western NY, excessive salt and brutal winters have destroyed everything, and most of what was left was scrapped. So I'm making due with what I can find, and I looked within a 100 mile radius for a light duty old truck to no avail. nobody has s**t because they don't care about old vehicles around here. and I just don't have the means to travel down south or out west for good steel.

What safety issue are you talking about anyway? With the brakes? Or something else I'm failing to see?

Brakes are the first safety issue I see with your kind of project. You need to reduce the weight of the truck porportionate to the reduction in braking capacity.

When you start modifying frames such as the KillBillet example the quality of welding becomes a safety factor, if your frame won't stay together other serious problems follow.

And while we've not talked steering, the approach on that KillBillet truck was to relocate the steering box and though it wasn't clear from the pictures I imagine the drag link was lengthened. That would need to be done correctly to avoid loosing steering.

Z'ing the frame in the front and flipping the font axle both are likely to change the steering setup, again possibly leading to dangerous conditions including failures.

It's not that these changes can not be made successfully, but rather that unless done well by someone who knows what they are doing, they may cause unsafe driving situations.

A common response is that these kinds of changes are made on race cars all the time. That's true, but its also different. Most race cars are inspected carefully before and after each race. Very few of us are that careful with our hot rods and therefore I feel we must be more careful in the design and construction of them.

Someone I respected died because someone else made a careless mistake of this type. I take it seriously but try to do so by encouraging everyone to do it right, not by discouraging the hobby.

Sorry to hear about your friend man. I can see how something like that would affect my outlook on projects like this, especially when talking to others about it.

Just so ya know, I'm not the only person on this project. A bunch of my buddies wanna help make this happen, and 2 of them are VERY well experienced hot rod mechanics who own their own shop, so I have the means and the tools to do everything right, so I'm not going at this alone.

I havent even started on the project yet, I'm just doin my homework before I dive in feet first, ya know?

As far as the weight is concerned, that monstrosity of a rear differential not being there is gonna knock off a couple hundred pounds for starters lol. But this truck is gonna be pretty bare bones, and I cant imagine that with several feet of frame and most of the sheet steel missing that the weight difference would that huge when compared to a lighter duty truck of the same generation. And BTW, I'm going with disc brakes on all 4 wheels, not just the front, so thats gonna be a lot of stopping power. And I'm not Z'ing the frame nor am I going to flip the axle, that's all remaining stock.

EDIT: thoughts on this product
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Deluxe-Disc-Brake-Kits-1947-1959-Chevy-Half-Ton,4622.html?parentDisplayId=37029

Yes that rear will be worth a few hundred pounds in weight reduction as well removing the big wheels and drums. You may be underestimating the weight of the remaining frame, but until you start cutting and shortening that's hard to know.

Doing you homework first is the right way to start and while I have lots of opinions others may come along with different ideas.

I'm having trouble imagining a fenderless AD truck that hasn't been z'd and runs a dropped axle, but as you proceed I'm sure you'll show pictures of your project.

The disk kit you list is one of the common 1/2-ton choices. Its not one I've used, but I'm sure a little searching here will turn up others who used it and commented on their experience.

I'm not trying to pick on you either, only answering best I can to the information you provide.

I'll say that I don't care much at all for a truck that's not a truck. But I'll look at most any vehicle, always something to learn and file away for future use.

I too think safety is a big concern, and some of the stuff I've seen on "rat rods" doesn't impress me...

So, back to the question at hand:
Disc brakes on all 4 wheels for a 4400. If you look at the axles and brakes on my 6400 you'll find some rather large (13.5" off the top of my head) disc brakes. I'll even wager that they will stop my truck better than 1/2 ton brakes would.

If you want real disc brakes then these may still be an option?

Grigg

Nah man, I know you guys aren't picking on me. Believe me I'm very grateful that you guys have had so much input on my project. I'll still look around and do more research until I pay off the cab I just found and get started. But I'll obviously know more as the project progresses, and I won't even start it until I'm completely convinced it's safe to drive.

Also, the rear differential will be available once I remove it if anyone wants it.

You'll want to offer it and any other parts in the Swap Meet forum. But heavy things like a big bolt rear are hard to sell to anyone who isn't local. They are difficult and expensive to ship!

I just finished what i believe is probably the easiest swap to convert at least an AD truck to disc. The patient was a 56 4400 34" Frame , the donor was a mid 80s P30 motorhome chassis with IFS. the rearend like all the other swaps ive seen was bolt in thing. A buddy just so happened to have a driveshaft that saved me a cutdown job and use of a bastard joint. He said it came out of an early 50s panel truck. I cut the front axle out perches and all. Marked my wheel centerline on the frame first of course. the IFS assembly is tapered 33 1/4 at the front and a little more than 34 at the back. I marked the area on the frame where it would be living split the bottom front half of that area with a torch and heated the frame and applied sledgehammer on both sides to give enough clearance for the narrow front of the IFS. After endless measuring i blew holes in the frame and bolted her together. Removed the entire steering linkage because the P30 draglink and steering elbows mount to a more narrow part of the frame and it is all useless now. I used the entire steering setup from a 70s- early 80s chevy van;box, drag, center and ends. Tilt van column , fabbed a linkage. modified a power steering pump/alt bracket combo from an Olds 350 made one bracked ran Lines to everything Hydroboost included. Steers with one finger! coils may need cut to lower her down ill wait the the front end is back on and see, might swap them for a smaller ie 1/2-1 ton spring. 4 wheel disc ps pb in 1956 how cool!

Pictures please?!
Or better yet start a new thread describing your conversion, as it is a different approach than what is discussed in this thread.

Grigg

I'll second Griggs request for photos and a new thread to show what you've done.

But I'll also ask some questions here.

A '56 is a Task Force (TF) truck, not an Advance Design (AD). Is the year a typo or is your project a TF? Your description of the frame sounds much more like a TF than an AD.

Are you driving this truck on the road already? I'd like to hear some description of how it drives.

Did you consider moving the upper a-arm bracket rather than modify the frame? On a pickup IFS that bracket will unbolt and the the holes could be redrilled to put the bracket against the frame. Yes that would change the alignment, but it should be possible with shims to correct the relatively small change it would amount to.

Please post more information and some pictures!

Grigg I've been checking out your P30 front axle swap to gain disc brakes. I think it's great.

Has anyone looked into modding the AD axle to accept the P30 spindles? I'm sure someone has, but just wondering.

I looked into it and decided the narrowed P30 axle was a better choice, but now I don't remember all the details and dimensions.
Please do look into it and let us know what you find.

Grigg

i just started a new post with a pic link for you guys.

It is a TF. I've driven it around up and down the driveway. I had to adjust the toe in a bit once its all done my buddy who owns it can get it lined up but it doesnt offer any trouble at the moment steers with one finger. stops on a dime. It was easier for me to clearance the frame slightly than to try and relocate the arms. you'd have to compress the springs and disassemble the unit before cutting or drilling the factory rivets. and i forgot to mention i welded up the 4 or 5 inch cut after i gained what i needed.