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#592875 11/16/2009 6:26 AM
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Hey guys, someone suggested to me that I should put a 5 speed in my truck, like something out of an S10 (T5 I think its called?) It has the 4 speed with really low 1st gear in it right now. Just curious if anyone has done this before, and what they think of it. The truck I have is a 61 1/2 ton with a 283, which I intend to rebuild.

Adam61 #592884 11/16/2009 8:10 AM
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The T5 will work with the 283 if you don't abuse it . If you go to www.inliners.org and look at left of page , click on " tech tips " then click on the T5 page , you'll find lots of info ! There's also lots of T5 install info and personal experiences shared on the forum pages . Type it into search and you'll find many posts concerning the swap . Good luck !

Last edited by oldblu65; 12/04/2009 8:33 PM. Reason: spElIn/

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oldblu65 #593383 11/18/2009 3:24 AM
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Thank you Oldblu!

Adam61 #593816 11/19/2009 2:37 PM
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How about an old Muncie 4-speed?

I have one in my 65 C10.

Running 33" dia. rear tires the engine turns 2200 rpm's at 55 mph, 2500 rpm's at 65 mph.

The old Muncies were built for V-8 power, while the S-10 5 speeds were not.

Something to consider....


In the Stovebolt Gallery ~~ "The Orange Crate" 1965 C10 SWB Step Side Build Thread

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I have put 2 t-5's behind 350's & I'm doing another one now. They work great. The o-drive makes it cruise down the road without screaming. The intregal shifter is better then the shifters on the 4 speeds. I don't do speed shifts or burnouts.

Last edited by Wrenchbender Ret.; 11/19/2009 9:27 PM.

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I do speed shifts and an occasional burnout. thumbs_up

The point is there are different transmission torque ratings.. before you buy anything be armed with the facts and pick the one that works best for your application.

Here is a fact filled article entitled T-5 Transmission Swaps from Hemmings Muscle Machines, July 1, 2004 - By Jim O'clair

One of the most versatile transmissions in the last 20 years or so has been the Borg-Warner T-5 manual transmission. This five-speed unit was used as original equipment by several manufacturers and can be easily adapted into older muscle cars as well. Based on the Borg Warner SR-4 and T-4 four-speed, a fifth gear was added to the case, creating the T-5. Actually, American Motors was the first manufacturer to use this transmission in the 1982 Spirit and Concord cars. Ford soon adopted the T-5, using this unit in the 1983 Mustangs and Thunderbirds. GM used the T-5 in the 1982 and up S/T series pickups and small Blazers, and their Astro vans. They began installing them in 1983 in the Camaros and Firebirds. Nissan also liked the idea of an internal shifter linkage five-speed, and they used this transmission in the 280ZX/300Z cars as well. Additionally, Honda and Isuzu used the T-5 in some models in the 1990s.

One of the advantages of this transmission is that the internal parts will interchange between versions of this unit. This enables you to select from several shift ratios, and the transmission is adaptable to different engine conversions or rear-end ratios. A T-5, while not known as a drag-racing transmission, can improve gas mileage in cars and trucks with taller gears because of the overdrive fifth-gear ratio. Another advantage is that the shifting linkages are internal, improving clearance for easier conversion because external shift linkage clearance is not an issue. The T-5 used in the GM models incorporates a hydraulic clutch master on the firewall and slave attached to the bell housing to provide smoother shifting with less effort than with a conventional mechanical clutch linkage. The Ford version of the T-5 uses a shift cable attached to the clutch pedal. The cases are all-aluminum and are referred to as toploaders because the access cover for the internals is on the top of the transmission rather than on the side like some other standard transmissions.


There were two generations of T-5 transmissions. All units used from beginning of production in 1982 until mid-1985 were referred to as "non-world class" or NWC. Non-world class versions had all-bronze synchro assemblies and used roller bearings to support the countershaft. In mid-1985, Ford began using the next generation T-5, called the "world class" or WC unit. These had numerous design improvements. First and second synchros were bearing and shaft assemblies rather than solid shafts in the non-world class, and the third and fourth synchro was a steel-reinforced unit with fiber-lined rings. Only fifth gear was still an all-bronze synchro. Both generation Ford T-5s used a 1-1/16-inch 10-spline input shaft diameter and a 28-spline output shaft. The 1983-92 GM T-5s that were coupled to V-8 engines have a 26-spline, 1-1/8-inch input shaft. The GM 4-cylinder and V-6 T-5s used the 3.52 through 4.03 ratios and were 1-inch, 14-spline input shafts. Later model F-Body world-class versions of the GM T-5s used the lower, 2.95 to 1 ratio gearbox and are the most sought-after for GM applications.

The non-world class T-5s were used in the following cars and trucks:
1982-85 AMC Spirit, Eagle, Concord
1982-96 Jeep CJ and XJ trucks
1982-85 Ford Mustang, Thunderbird
1983-87 Camaro, Firebird
1982-92 Chevy S/T-10 pickups, Blazers, Astro van
1982-83 Nissan 280ZX
1984-86 Nissan 300ZX
1984-86 Chevette and Pontiac T-1000 also used this unit; however, the countershaft bearings were smaller and the T-Body bellhousing was not interchangeable with any other GM models.
The more popular world-class units were used in these original vehicles:
Late 1985-96 Mustang/Cougar/Thunderbird
1988-96 Camaro and Firebird
1993-95 Chevy/GMC S/T series trucks
1994-96 Honda Passport
1991-97 Isuzu Rodeo

Note: 4-cylinder Ford 2.3-liter Turbo units as well as 1993-96 Cobra "Z-Spec" T-5s do not interchange directly, due to a difference in the input shaft bearings. The most important difference between the non-world class and the world-class transmissions is the torque rating. Later is better (or the higher the tag number). For example, 1983-89 Mustang units, both world class and non-world class, were rated at 265-lbs.ft. of torque. The 1990-93 versions were rated at 300-lbs.ft., and the 1993-96 Cobra "Z-Spec" T-5 was rated at 330-lbs.ft.

You should be looking for as complete a unit as possible, when searching the swap meets or salvage yards for these transmissions. On GM's crossmember, clutch master, clutch hose, and clutch slave cylinder should come with the unit to save time and plumbing. It would be even better if the starter and flywheel were still with the car; usually later-model starters are lighter and have higher torque. If converting from an automatic-equipped car to a manual, a clutch pedal from the donor car will also be needed, as well as the bellhousing. On Ford vehicles, hydraulics are not used, and a shift cable is employed in place of the clutch master and slave cylinders. Make sure to take this cable when buying parts off the donor car. Aftermarket clutch cables and crossmembers are available, if these parts cannot be found.

An identification tag number, which is on one of the mounting bolts on the tail case, can identify all T-5 manual 5-speeds. They all start with prefix 1352, and the next few digits will tell you what the unit came out of originally and what its shift ratio is. You can check any original tag number online at www.5speeds.com. Numbering series starts at 001 and runs as high as about 260. Borg-Warner sold the rights to the T-5 to Tremec in the late 1990s; however, there is no difference between the two manufacturers' production units, other than the name used in the castings.

Ratios depend on tag number, but most are in the 3.35 to 3.97:1 range. There are 2.95:1 units that were used in the late-model Mustangs, Camaros and Firebirds. The 2.3 Turbo Fords used a few units that were 4.06:1. Speedometer drive gears were 6, 7 or 8 teeth, but may have to be changed, depending on engine and rear-end size in the transplant vehicle. Changing of the speedometer gear is a definite requirement when installing a transmission and V-8 unit in a 6-cylinder, and vice versa.

The Ford versions of the T-5 will adapt easily to the earlier Ford three- and four-speed manual bellhousings by an adapter plate which enlarges the metric mounting bosses to 1/2-inch diameter, and adds 3/4-inch in spacing. Installation of a T-5 into an earlier Ford product is fairly easy, because of the bellhousing similarities. You should make sure, however, that the proper flywheel is used, depending on the year of your engine. The 1981 and earlier Ford small-blocks used a 28-ounce imbalance, 157-tooth flywheel. Any of the small-block Fords newer than 1981 used a 50-ounce imbalance, 157-tooth flywheel. These should not be interchanged. Late-model T-5 bellhousings used on earlier Ford V-8 engines will bolt up, but the late-model fulcrum for the fork needs to be replaced with an early-style fulcrum installed on the inside of the housing to align the throw-out bearing fork. You can, of course, also use an aftermarket scatter shield for this changeover, eliminating these adapters.

Because of the similarities in earlier and later Ford small-block bellhousings, it's possible your acquired T-5, with an early flywheel, will fit in these small-block V-8 applications:

1965-68 Ford full-size cars
1965-69 Comet
1967-70 Fairlane
1967-70 Falcon
1968-73 Mustang
1971-74 Torino
1970-74 Montego

Mounting a T-5 in place of a Super T-10, Muncie or Saginaw into a Chevy is pretty straightforward; the input shaft length is identical, and the whole unit is only two inches longer overall at the transmission mount pad. A shorter driveshaft would be required, and modifications to the crossmember would be necessary to mount the T-5 properly. The bellhousing-to-block bolt patterns are the same on the earlier V-8s, and the bellhousing-to-transmission configuration is common to all other GM manual transmissions; so installation of a 1983-92 GM T-5 out of a V-8 should be relatively painless, if you can acquire all the necessary parts from the donor car. Although the V-6 and 4-cylinder input shafts are 14-spline and will fit with the proper clutch disc, they are not recommended for V-8 applications. They do not have the higher torque ratings required for the V-8 units without upgrading the internals. Installing one of these five-speeds in a Buick, Pontiac or Oldsmobile would require the use of the proper B-O-P bellhousing. There are two that have been found to fit both engine and transmission. One is out of a 1979-81 Firebird or 1979 Skylark (casting number 563441). The other is from a 1982 F-body (casting number 14037657).

All 1993 and up GM cars with the T-5 used the Ford bellhousing bolt pattern, and not the earlier GM pattern. The 1993 and up GM applications were limited to V-6 Camaros/Firebirds, as the option was not offered in the V-8s. You can identify these transmissions by the 26-spline GM input shaft with a Ford bolt pattern. You should also know that F-Body bellhousings mount the transmission at a 17-degree angle towards the driver, which could cause problems when trying to line up and mount the shifter through the floorboards of other models.

Aftermarket adapters to mount the Ford T-5 are available for AMC V-8s, Ford flatheads, and early 1950s Chrysler Hemis. Adapters for GM T-5s are also available for these same cars, plus Buick V-6 and Chrysler flathead 6-cylinder. A, B, and E-Body Mopars can also use the T-5 with an aftermarket bellhousing from one of several suppliers. AMC and Jeep can replace their existing SR4 or T-4 unit with the T-5, and adapters are available to install it in 4WD Jeep applications too. There are numerous "How To" installation instructions on Internet web forums from various enthusiast groups that include Imports and early Chevrolet six-cylinder truck applications.

T-5s are currently selling for between $150 and $500 through swap meets and salvage yards, and complete changeover kits are being sold in the $850 range. Rebuilt T-5s run about $700 to $850. The improvements in performance gained by changing to a T-5 will certainly outweigh the effort required to complete this installation, and the fuel savings, as an added bonus, will help make the decision to upgrade to this transmission one to consider.

This article originally appeared in the JULY 1, 2004 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines

Last edited by Hot Rod John; 11/22/2009 1:36 PM.

In the Stovebolt Gallery ~~ "The Orange Crate" 1965 C10 SWB Step Side Build Thread

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Hot Rod John #594428 11/22/2009 12:26 AM
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That's a lot of info. It is wrong about the S-10 being hydraulic. Ive used them up to the low 90's & they have been mechanical linkage. The 88 up S-10 had a electronic speedo. Some changes have to be made if you use one of those or a electronic speedo.


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I had an 85 S-10 and a 93 Jimmy, they were both 5-speeds and both were hydraulic.


In the Stovebolt Gallery ~~ "The Orange Crate" 1965 C10 SWB Step Side Build Thread

Inspired to be different. Different in a way of my own, not in a way that others strive.
Hot Rod John #594680 11/22/2009 10:50 PM
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Gaaaah! Getting confuzzled! Ha ha! Thanks so much for the info you guys, it's giving me something to chew on for now. Won't be putting any work into my truck until the spring, maybe later, but yeah, for now I'm just kinda gathering info, figuring out what i want to do with it.

Hot Rod John #594705 11/22/2009 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Hot Rod John
I had an 85 S-10 and a 93 Jimmy, they were both 5-speeds and both were hydraulic.
don't comprehend what you mean by hydraulic linkage. the shifter mounts on top of the tailhousing and is a straight internal mechanism.
perhaps you are refering to the later hydraulic clutch setup
ron

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Sorry. I was wrong. The S-10 is hydraulic but it has an external slave cyl. It operates through a clutch fork & uses the standard chev. TO brg. You use you original linkage for a T-5 swap.


They say money can't buy happiness. It can buy old Chevy trucks though. Same thing.
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Wrenchbender Ret. #594989 11/24/2009 12:02 AM
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Oh, well that's easy....glad that got cleared up!

padresag #595170 11/24/2009 1:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Hot Rod John
I had an 85 S-10 and a 93 Jimmy, they were both 5-speeds and both were hydraulic.

Originally Posted by padresag
don't comprehend what you mean by hydraulic linkage. the shifter mounts on top of the tailhousing and is a straight internal mechanism.
perhaps you are refering to the later hydraulic clutch setup
ron

As stated in the article: Another advantage is that the shifting linkages are internal, improving clearance for easier conversion because external shift linkage clearance is not an issue. The T-5 used in the GM models incorporates a hydraulic clutch master on the firewall and slave attached to the bell housing to provide smoother shifting with less effort than with a conventional mechanical clutch linkage.

Last edited by Hot Rod John; 11/24/2009 1:37 PM.

In the Stovebolt Gallery ~~ "The Orange Crate" 1965 C10 SWB Step Side Build Thread

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Hot Rod John #595236 11/24/2009 5:52 PM
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Will the T5 bolt up to a 327? Also, will a 327/T5 swap into a '62 3/4 ton? How complicated would the swap be?


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Scott62 #595244 11/24/2009 6:29 PM
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I would really think twice about putting a T5 into a 3/4 ton. These things are heavy old beasts and I don't think a T5 would hold up too well in them. That's my thoughts, anyway.


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Bears63,
What would you recommend for a conversion then into a 3/4 ton that would bolt to a 327. This truck probably won't see any more heavy duty work. Will the 327 drop in in place of the 235 with new mounts?


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Scott62 #595288 11/24/2009 8:59 PM
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I can't really make any recommendations for tranny's. I'm still running a granny-low 4 speed in my 3/4ton. I was just thinking that with the weight of the rig alone may have an impact on the durability of the T5, but perhaps if you babied it it would work okay. I simply don't know for sure. As to what will bolt up, most anything after '62 that has the standard GM bell housing will bolt up to that 327. There is a lot of stuff that will mate up with no issues other than getting it mounted in the truck.

As for the engine itself, you may have to get a set of V8 towers to put the 327 in. I don't remember how the 235's sit, but that would be the worst part of it. Make sure the mounts line up on the motor and slap it in.


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Bears63 #595346 11/25/2009 12:08 AM
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What kind of 4 or 5 speed did the full size trucks in the 80s and 90s use? Won't something like that work instead of a T5? Just thinking...

Adam61 #595351 11/25/2009 12:27 AM
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The full sized trucks used a ZF 5-speed. The 4.3 liter S-10's used a NV3550


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IIRC, the ZF has an integral bellhousing, which will cause some engine mount issues as the rear mounts will not be there. Perhaps with a mid-plate to allow for use of the stock mounts?


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Oh, ok, so that's why I don't hear of people using them...more of a hassle than its worth...

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I run the A883 or GM option MY6. The gearing is almost the same as a granny 4sps, not counting granny low. Fourth gear is an OD. Chrysler used them in their 3/4 ton trucks.

Larry

Last edited by LGriffin; 11/25/2009 2:47 PM.

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Hi guys, this is my first post, but a topic close to my heart! I just finished installing a T5 from an 86 astro van 4.3 V6 into my 64 LWB C-10 with a 230(complete rebuild). The shifter comes up in a different place, so I had to cut the floor, but the shifter doesn't interfere with the bench seat. Also, I had got a one piece driveshaft made and had to get a longer speedo cable. Unexpectedly, the rear mount position on the T5 I got fit perfectly over the crossmember already there for the e-brake, so I just drilled a hole in it (will have to relocate e-brake mounting location). I used the original truck flywheel and just a napa clutch kit for an 86 astro van. Also, the astro was originally a hydraulic clutch setup, but the mechanical linkage left from the SM420 works just fine. It shifts like a dream. Now perhaps on to power steering!


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