The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Tool Chest Hobart 220v "Stickmate 205AC" stick welder?

What do you guys think? I know, I know, stick welding is supposed to be harder than MIG but I have to learn it for shop class anyway and I'd like to have one to fix stuff or make something, especially if I have to make a project for shop. I think I will get 6013(50lb box for $20) and 7018AC based on 6013 being for general use and 7018AC being for higher strength(I plan to make a hitch for the '75, either way with a Reese Hitch or homemade it will probably need to be welded). Plus, it's the cheapest one I found that is a reputable welder that has a decent duty cycle, welds just about anything I would need to weld, and isn't made overseas(as far as I know). At any rate, people seem to have good success with the name and it seems to be a good welder so I've picked this one. The only problem is that I don't have an outlet in my shed where the welder will go and I will have to either run a line or make an extension cord. I really don't know if I can run a line to the shed or not so I'm leaning towards an extension cord if it is safe. I know they make 220v extension cords but the ones I've found are in excess of $200. I've found a 220 outlet that is on it's own line and not in use. The only problem there is that the outlet has the wrong receptacle on it and the breaker isn't big enough. It needs the dryer type for the welder but has one that looks like - -
- No problem there, just change out the breaker(to 50 Amp as such the Hobart site says) and receptacle right? Or can I leave the receptacle the same and put two different ends on the extension cord? I don't know if it would matter or not. Secondly, I don't know if a heavy duty 110v extension cord with 220v ends on it would be heavy enough. It seems to me that this could be really dangerous and the sensible thing to do would be to get the welder out of the shed and move it close enough to the house to plug it in when I need it(only 10-15 ft) until I can get a professional extension cord or have someone who knows what they are doing run a line to the shed for me. So, any opinions?


(BTW, I've not decided on mig welders because they are more expensive and even with the $50-$100 for welding supplies added onto the stick welder it is still cheaper than the smallest mig welder they have which has a 20% duty cycle at 90 to 100 amps versus the stick welders 100% at 90-100 amps.)

Congrats on getting a welder! Somewhere on the welder is a plate which will tell you how many amps the welder uses. You need to know this number (35-45 amps?)

As for the unused receptacle in the house you need to make sure the wire going from the panel box to the receptacle can handle the load your welder could place on the circuit. If you change the circuit breaker and the receptacle for a 50 amp load and the wire can only handle a 30 amp load, and you are pulling 40 amps, the wire will overheat and could burn your house down. MAKE SURE the wire inside the house will handle the load.

I wish I had some load charts in front of me but I suspect a #8 copper SO cord would be OK for 40'. Hopefully some other smarter sparkies will chime in with better answers:)

Don't congratulate me yet, Racecarl. I'm getting the stuff hopefully a little at a time(the gear needed) and then the welder or the other way around so we don't have to spend 3-400 dollars all at one time. Oh, the joy of Christmas and birthdays! The site says the welder draws 47.5 amps when in use and 230volts. As far as I can tell the wiring in the house to the circuit is at least 8 gauge if not bigger, it is definitely bigger than ten gauge if I'm thinking right. 8 gauge from what I've researched is supposed to be good up to but not including 55 amps according to some tables for continuous use and somewhere around 40 for continuous use. That would mean that to use anything but a welder the 8 gauge would probably be a no no if it does require 50 amps. What's the #8 SO cord though? Thanks for the info

I don't know what size the wire is yet(going to go see if I can find out based on it's diameter) but it is about as big as one of those clear plastic BIC pens which means it is about 1/4" diameter.

According to this chart I have at least a 5 gauge wire because it is between 3/16" and 1/4" for sure and by my simple conversion factor of the diameter of the wire(.25 or 3/16)times the inches to centimeter conversion(2.54) times centimeter to mm conversion(10) that gives me 6.35mm for 1.4" and 4.7625 for 3/16". Then, that means I have somewhere between a 5 and 2 gauge wire. Even accounting for error it leaves plenty of room for 6 and 8 gauge which are supposed to be sufficient.

You didn't measure the insulation when you measured did you? I find it real hard to believe, although 4 gauge is commonly used on electric stove plugs...... Just wanted to make sure you knew that you have to measure the copper part of the wire ONLY.

Also, We're talking worst-case here....... That 47.5 amps of draw is only when your welding on the highest output range of the welder..... At lower ranges, your draw is less. You may very well be able to get by on that 30 amp breaker if you're always welding stuff less than 1/2 inch thick.

Well, I figured that, I'm thinking that it is 8 or 6 gauge because it is thicker than the 10 gauge extension cords. I just don't want to have to turn the power off and take things apart unless I have to. So with that said, the wiring is at least adequate for 30 amps. I guess that means that I now only need to make an extension cord or move the welder when I need to. With that said, could I make a sort of extension cord out of the wiring that is in house walls(has the white plastic looking insulation on it) that is 6 or 8 gauge to plug into the outlet and run it to the shed when I need to? That way, I know the cord is heavy enough and I don't have to worry about electrical fires. The cord won't stay outside so I don't think weather would be a factor.

i have done the extension cord thing like you are talking about in a pinch at a friends house, but i would be careful. if you are just using romex or a 110 cord like you mentioned i your first post won't have proper grounding. your 220 wire should have 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground, the romex or 110 ext cord won't. i personally would get the proper size wire and just run a new circut out to shed now, install the correct recep in a 2 gang nail in box, and breaker and it will be where you need it. you can run it underground in pipe if you need to your shed. lowes and home depot sells precut wire someone else got but took back for 1/2 price i think. they usually have some longer pieces of the big stuff. i just finished wiring up my shop and added 6 220 circuts. not too expensive. you might check for a used welder as well i just sold a 220 miller thunderbolt for $140 a few weeks ago. i am not a electrician by any means i know there are a couple on here that can tell you the perticulars. good luck.

SO cord is a heavy rubber cord with fine stranded wire. It is designed to be rough-housed around.

I would not recommend using a ROMEX (the white house-style wire) for an extension cord because the wire is solid and will break much more easily. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but you would really be wasting your money unless you are intending to use the ROMEX wire inside your shed for a more permanent installation later. Remember that you must consider the distance from the house to the shed when sizing the wire. A #8 wire might be sufficient for a distance of 20' but you might have to bump up to a #6 wire size for 50' or #4 up to 75'. Again, I don't have a wire-load sizing chart in front of me, but you get the idea.

Another idea you might consider is getting long welding leads. You could plug the welder in at the house and just run the leads where you need them. I am not sure what the price per foot of 2/0 copper welding lead versus 3 conductor #8 copper SO cord.

So does the wire you are talking about have the 4 wires I need? I looked at Romex at the store where I will be getting the welder(btw I want a new welder so I know there will be a warranty and I have some idea of what I will be getting, hopefully) and it seemed like the way to go but it seems I can't do that as I need a neutral. For everything including a 100amp 6 space box it is a little under $200. Do you guys think Ace Hardware would have the wiring I need? I'd like to wire up the shed to stop running an extension cord out every time I need something but if need be I can just plug it in at the house outlet. Copper welding leads would still mean that I need to move the welder over to the house and run the cord in through the window, unless I put the welder in the house, which wouldn't make much sense.

So, to be clear, I need a 3 wire(technically a 4 wire) cord that is probably going to need to be 6 gauge or heavier. I also need to get pipe if I don't get outdoor wire. Any idea on what size pipe I should get, the length shouldn't be more than 12 feet going from the point left at the house to the shed for sure, but what about the diameter? I'm pretty sure everything else is taken care of as far as planning. Did I forget anything?

SO cord typically has just 3 conductors, in this case 3 #8 stranded wires. For a 240V welder you only need two hot legs and a ground. Household appliances like stoves require 4 conductors (line 1, line 2, neutral, and ground).

Go to the library and find a book called 'Wiring Simplified'-- it will help you sort all of this out.

It might also help if you do a google search on welder extension cords. A lot of guys have written their experiences with cords.

I probably know just enough to be dangerous in most cases and without being on site to see exactly what the situation is, it might be better if you can ask a local electrician or inspector about how you should go about running your electricity.

Good luck!

So I don't need a neutral? Okay, in any event I was prepared because I looked again and the romex was available with 4 wires too

http://www.hobartwelders.com/om/0900/o949b_hob.pdf
http://www.houwire.com/products/technical/article400_5.html

Above are links to the owner's manual for your welder and the National Electrical Code applying to SO cords.

Looking at the welder pdf (page 17, figure 3-8) you will notice that there are only 3 conductors required, in this case L1, L2, and ground. Neutral is NOT needed for a welder. The fan is designed to run on 220 volts--nothing in the welder requires 110V so you don't need a neutral. Remember that neutral and ground are NOT the same.

Okay, now go to the houwire link, which shows NEC 400.5. In the left column you will find the AWG of the wire. Look down the list and you will find 8 AWG wire. Following across you will see that 8 AWG SO cord will handle 40 amps. Even though your welder will draw 47.5 amps, the welder's duty cycle at that level is so short that the SO cord will not get hot enough to cause a problem.

Modern ROMEX wire is sold with 2 (or more) current carrying conductors PLUS a ground wire. Remember that electricity will always find the shortest path to ground. The grounding wire is NEVER supposed to have any current on it UNLESS there is a fault of some sort in a current carrying conductor. This grounding wire will allow the current to go to ground (away from people) and trip the overload device, which is a fuse or circuit breaker. The wire is bare so that is the ROMEX wire is cut with a pair of cutters or has a nail driven into it, chances are that a short circuit will occur at the point of the defect in the wire, tripping the overload device.

If you are planning to run permanent wire from the house to the shed, you WILL need 4 conductors (L1, L2, neutral, and ground)

Okay, that's what I thought.

Well guys, I got the welder set up Thursday but I had some problems. When I plugged in the welder, it had power to it but it wouldn't weld. When I tested the outlet, I had 120 volts at both terminals to the ground. I couldn't test them both together due to the voltmeter I was using. So I went up to my neighbor's today to see if I could plug it in up there. He didn't have the right outlet but he did let me in on a bit of info. The welder should have a slight "humming" noise when it is on. Mine doesn't do that. So I'm guessing that the welder(which was the display and there's no telling what happened to it) is no good. I'm going to return it and get another one, and if that doesn't work I'm going to see about the 130 amp 110v Auto Arc welder there that I think is made by Miller.

You need to test across both 'hot' legs to make sure you are getting 240V.

If you tested each hot to ground they would both read 120 volts but if they are on the same phase they would read 0 volts across both hots. Most voltmeters will read up to at least 250 volts AC so you should be OK.

If they read 0 from one to the other is that a problem? If so can you tell me how to correct it? I can't see any possible way for it to be screwed up, the wiring is pretty straightforward.

Based on reading the whole thing
1. You are not an electrician
2. You need a qualified competent electrician
3. Yes it may cost 1 or two hundred but you will have a setup you and yours can trust.

Dan Bentler

If the two hots read 0 volts there is no potential, therefore no current will flow when needed and the welder will not work.

If you hook up an occilliscope (sp?) to a 120 volt outlet, you will observe the 'wave' curving up above the zero volt line and then curving down below the zero volt line. For simplicity's sake, when the curve is at it's highest peak, you would see 120 volts positive. At the lowest point, you would see 120 volts negative. This changes 60 times per second, hence 60 hz frequency. Lets call this leg L1.

L2 does just the opposite of L1. When L1 is going up above the zero volt line, L2 is going down below the zero volt line. These two swap positions 60 times per second. If you measure the voltage between the upper peak of L1 (+120 volts) and the lower valley of L2 (-120 volts) there is an ABSOLUTE difference of 240 volts.

L1 and L2 will both read 120 volts to ground, because ground is the zero line on the scope. If you measure between L1 and L2 correctly connected, since they are 180 degrees out of phase, they should read 240 volts.

To get 240 volts from your panel box, the breakers that have the handles tied together for 240 volt each get power from a different leg of phase, that is, L1 and L2. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO GET 240 VOLTS FROM ANYTHING BUT PROPERLY CONNECTED BREAKERS WITH THE HANDLES TIED TOGETHER FROM THE FACTORY. THIS IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!

If one leg of phase developes a short circuit, that breaker will trip and will also trip the other leg of phase so that the entire power circuit will be dead. If you had two separate breakers and were lucky enough to have them feeding on different phases, the welder would work. However, if one leg of phase tripped, the other leg might not. YOU COULD GET ELECTROCUTED ATTEMPTING TO TROUBLESHOOT THE PROBLEM BECAUSE UNLESS YOU PHYSICALLY MADE SURE BOTH BREAKERS WERE OFF, THE OTHER LEG OF PHASE WOULD BE DELIVERING POWER LIKE NOTHING WAS WRONG.

I am in agreement with leitmotif, you need to get a sparky (electician) in there to make sure things are correct.

Racecarl, I have done what you said. One wire to each pole of a double pole breaker that go directly to an outlet in the shed which has the two outer and upper "slits" energized by the red and black wires, with the ground going to the center lower "slit." This should mean that it is wired right, shouldn't it? I also know the importance of getting an electrician to check it out. My neighbor is certified and he said that he'll take a look at it.

Jordan

I just found out you are about 16. I admire your pluck on doing the truck and trying electrical. However at the age of 16 you are too young for an apprenticeship and for sure too young to get killed and you got two more years of listening to Mom if you burn something up. Get your neighbor to help you out. Learn from him and see if he will let you do some small electrical projects under supervision and training. If I were in your neighborhood I would bring the tools and show you and teach you how to do it.

Dan Bentler

well on the other hand when you are young it's the time to learn, and if you kill someone you can't be tried as a adult. but i agree, you gotta watch out for mama!

It sounds like you have it figured out. Have your neighbor look at things before you power it up just to be on the safe side.

3/4" should work it would pull easier thru 1" your choise
6 ga type THWN, THW, RHW 75 DEGREE c wire if you use THHN
YOU CAN USE 8 GA 90 DEGREE C WIRE COPPER WIRE ONLY
THIS IS FROM THE NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE