The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts lug bolt grease?

I'm getting ready to install the the wheels on my '59 viking 60. I have brushed the lug bolts to clean the threads. Should I use any sort of thread compound before installing the nuts?

Matthew,

I typically use a small amount of Never-Seize paste on each stud on all my vehicles. You can usually find it at your FLAPS. Not to excess now, just a knick with the brush. You don't need excess under the contact face of the nut. The action of threading the nuts on will distribute the paste to the thread bottoms. Because old/big trucks often don't get their wheels off for years, this will help you at some future time. It is also prudent to torque the wheel nuts to the factory recommended spec. and check the torque from time to time (after a big drive or rough route) to see if they have changed. Caution: Not torquing or low torque = problems like loose nuts or damaged studs. When you take the nuts off, don't set them in dirt or gravel. The paste will attract grit and you will need to rinse them in a can of varsol and blow them clean. Never-Seize (or equiv.) has worked fine for me for over 40 yrs with no ill effects.

Others may differ or offer contrary opinions.

Never-Seize also works well for me.

Grigg

Boy guys, I've gotta disagree. Here's a good article in Fleet Owner magazine that dispels the never-seize myth.
http://fleetowner.com/equipment/tiretracks/fleet_debunking_myth/#

In addition, every wheel catalog I've got (dozens) say to torque stud piloted nuts dry to about 450 pounds. Hub piloted guidelines aren't as simple (if this then do this, if that then do that). Here's the on-line Accuride safety procedure that includes torque and lug nut prep guidelines for both stud and hub piloted lugs. Stu
http://www.accuridewheels.com/SafetyManual/section%20XII.pdf

The Accuride manual does say in several places (page 43 note 3 for example) "Tighten nuts
to ...-... ft.-lbs. (dry)" and elsewhere it says "Do not lubricate the nuts or studs"
But on page 43 note #3 it says "Also, apply two drops of oil
to the last two or three threads at the end of each stud"

The difference seems to be, and as pointed out in the fleet owner article, Stud piloted (Budd) wheels are required to be torqued dry. Hub piloted are required to be oiled with 2 or 3 drops of 30 wt engine oil on the stud and between the flange (on the nut)and the nut.

I'll read some more, but so far I still like a small dab of on the threads, not even enough to wipe off once installed and removed again, keeps them from rusting.
Or if there is an approved way to keep the threads from rusting I'm all for it?

Grigg

I use a mixture of 90W and anti-seize on all lugs. The 90W helps with the rust prevention.

We have always used Permatex anti seize lube on the studs hub piloted piloted wheels. The torque which we do with a torque stick is on the flange of the nut. Stud piloted torqued at the ball and seat. If you run salted roads, they rust tight. If you oil the ball and seat, you will over torque the stud and it will break. Much was written on this subject when the big switch was made from stud piloted wheels to hub piloted. Stud piloted is so obsolete now that not much is being written about it any more.

Besides the mentioned risks of overtorquing, to my understanding the anti-seize compounds have ground glass in them that hasten the destruction of the component parts. The message in the Fleet Owners article is that worn out lugs and nuts need to be replaced rather than compensated for. Also as suggested in the article, guys that have spent their lives in the shop aren't generally the ones that have to deal with the insurance investigators and lawyers. I had a shop foreman on a different forum a while back comment that he had an employee repeatedly twisting off grade 8 lugs because he was using anti-seize and putting the full torque to them. He took the anti-seize away from the guy and solved the problem. Stu

This is the anti seize we use. http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/80206.pdf I don't see anything mentioned about ground glass. Our impacts are capable of putting out 1400 ft. lbs. of torque. Securex recommends 450 to 500 ft. lbs. on their fasteners. If you don't use something like a torque stick, you will pull threads with or without anti seize.

The real reason that they don't want you to use lubricant on the studs is the trend t useng closed end lug nuts. Over use of lube can end up packing up on the end of the stud, getting trapped by the closed end of the nut. That will cause a hydraulic lockup of the nut on the stud, preventing proper torqueing.

to properly torque a bolt (wheel, flywheel, etc.) you must know are you tightening dry, lubricated, zinc plated, phosphorus etc. These all factor into the torque value. Wheels and other rotating assemblies are considered a class 1 requirement. Generally, if you lubricate with anti-seize, back off of the torque value to about 90% of the dry torque spec. And NEVER use an impact wrench, always a torque wrench.

I agree with Bill, hydro-packing a fastener is a problem (you should see what it does to aluminum castings).

Dry torque has been the standard for lots and lots of years. It would seem to me that the manufacturers should know what's best for their products. That'll be my final word on the subject. Stu

Well, I think we have sort of drifted from the subject. I don't think that a 59 model two ton about which the original question was asked ever used closed fasteners. It could have come with ball and seat disc wheels or the GM Kelsey Hayes hub piloted wheels. I'm not sure if Dayton open center were an option on a 60 series in 59. I think they started with the 70 and 80 series. If he has stud piloted wheels, they should be installed dry. I have seen no recommendations by GM on the vehicles they built 50 years ago for the KH wheels. I personally like to lubricate the threads. As for modern over the road equipment, I use all Securex fasteners. Their torque recommendation is 450 to 500 ft lbs. A 475 ft. lb. torque stick easily falls in that parameter when used on a one inch impact.

I worked on school buses for 25 years, and the manufactures always told us to put the nuts on dry. The only exception was for hub piloted wheels where you put two or three drops of oil on the washer part of the nut.
Jim

Also using anti-seize with aluminum rims prevents corrosion-welding between the two.

WOW! Ask a simple question......
The Accuride article only recommends oil on hub piloted wheels between the wheel and nut flange, not on the threads and to never use Neversieze on stud piloted Budds such as mine. I'm going to clean the studs and nuts, mount them dry and hope I never have to remove a wheel again:-)

Thanks guys, for your help.

Accuride does say to use 2 or 3 drops of oil on the threads of hub piloted wheels only..

speaking of lug nuts, the shop manual recommends 450 ft lbs of torque. Ever seen a torque wrench that will go that high? The truck parts guy said the torque multiplier that will do it costs about $500 plus the cost of the wrench. The truck shop foreman said to crank up my 3/4 air wrench all the way, hit it hard and don't worry about about torquing. They run over a hundred oilfield semis in the fleet, never torque and never have a problem. She is just an old farm truck with a 50 mph max and could use the $500 spent on other things, like paint.

The advice I've gotten is to use your ratchet with a 3' pipe on the end, then stand on it. That's if you're an average size guy. If you're "husky", you might go easy on the bar. Stu

Wouldn't that be about the same as an impact gun if not more? Seems to me that I'd be more likely to snap a stud with a 3foot cheater than with an impact gun. Actually I squirted Marvel all over my threads recently to help with removal, and impacted them on and off. I haven't had any problems, but I use my truck for recreation, not work. I can understand following the rules a little closer if you are hauling regularly.

I have a 120 to 600 ft pound torque wrench that we use on Cummins head bolts and mains, but we don't drag it out to mount tires when a torque stick does the same thing. Routinely visually checking your wheel end nuts is just as important as torquing them in the first place. Loose nuts will show tell tale signs of rust streaks.

Wow Matt,
Don't you love it when a hot topic is started for a simple inquiry? Open a Big can did-ya?
Do a google search and find many discussions on forums on wet/dry torque.
Why do we torque wheel nuts, what are we shooting for here?
To get maximum clamping force to keep the wheels on for safety/longetivity.
What if we under-torque nuts?
They work loose, wreck studs/wheels and wheels fall off on the road (people die = $M liability) (38 yrs ago, I had a wheel pass me once, it was mine!)
What if we over-torque nuts?
The studs stretch, later (or sooner) break, wheels-off on the road, same problem.
No one wants either to happen, so the answer for billions of wheel nuts in the world is somewhere in the middle.
"Ya pays your money, Ya takes your shot"
So there are definitions of torque, friction co-efficients, lubrication, torque angle, bolt stretch, elastic limit, etc.
Plus all the variables with wheel alloys, nut designs, hub/stud piloting, rolled/machined threads, bolt/nut grades, applications, load ratings, service conditions, maintenance frequencies, technician skill/competence, ad infinitum!
What matters here is an strength of materials engineering term called elastic limit.
It is a point on a curve you would not want to exceed, lest you break what you are loading (tightening). Simplified: if you stretch a stud that is elastic, it will recover when unloaded.
If you over stretch a stud, it will not recover, EVER!!!
IT WILL BREAK!!!!
It is a liability waiting to happen at some unopportune time. OOPS.

Wet torque (never-seize, oil, grease, loctite, etc.) changes the the friction when running nuts on. Each is a variable in itself.
Note: oil is [generally] the most predictable for truck technicians, so wheel manufacturers spec. "drops of oil".
Reduced friction means stud stretches more for any given torque (example quoted above of mechanic breaking studs).
But what is the answer? wet/dry torque? Well gentle readers that is a function of all the variables quoted above and more.
Torque, per se is at best, an indicator of stretch. Rusty/dirty studs or bad threads use up the torque, just overcoming friction.
The nut may not be "tight" to the wheel at all.
When building race engines, con-rods/bolts are the Achillies Heel when high RPM loaded. We measure bolt stretch with a dial indicator gage. Thus staying within the elastic limit.
Can't do that on a wheel stud. So the next best thing, Torque Angle. Fasteners are torqued to a base point, then a torque angle is applied. The angle is directly related to stretch.
Each thread has a "thread pitch" (amount hut advances in one turn). If you had the engineering specs for allowable stretch on each fastener and included many of the above variables noted, you can calculate the angle (360 per turn) an thence get it in the right ballpark.
Maintenance shops often use plastic pointer indicators on each nut to "indicate" if a nut is working loose. Look on your average city bus or well maintained fleet trucks. Most of us in our hobby would consider it overkill for our old Bolts.
What really matters to us? Tight nuts, yes, but not too tight! I have old vehicles that get very low miles per year, as do most of us. I may not take the wheels off for a hand full of years, it is more likely to rust in place (thus the never-seize)
Yesterday I picked up a '45 2Ton farm truck, by p.o. estimated wheels had not been off since late '50's. YAH! I know what break-away torque means. Black (impact) socket, 1" drive, 5 ft. bar and pipe. I am (290lbs) standing on the pipe at the 4 ft mark and bouncing. Nothin! You do the math! Time for the "hot wrench".

One of my customers this summer brought me a wheel nut with stud broken off inside. His torque wrench was bad and he had no idea, just kept puttin the torque to her. ALL studs now need to be replaced, ALL have now exceeded their elastic limit and would fail soon after. ("OR, does ya want to take yer chances???") He was lucky it happened right in front of him, rather than on the road. When I (digital) calibrated the torque wrench, it was 50% over! SHUZBOT!

Another friend was wanting to get his 13yr old son to help. Good for the kids to get involved. Assume nothing about their understanding of the task. He was to tighten nuts with the preset (click) torque wrench. We could hear him working on the far side of the vehicle, Click, Click, good. Then when he came to the near side, we saw him torque the nuts, Click, then add 1/4 to 1/2 turn "for good measure". "GODFREY DANIEL!!!!!, ==== STOP THAT!"

As ever, opinions vary! Others may differ or add or cite other resources. Do what is best for you and your old Bolt.

Thanks kind Bolt Friends for suffering thru a long post. Keep your nuts tight, oil in the sump and ROll-ON, rubber side down.

Rick Metcalfe
Professional Engineer, Inventor, part time College Professor, Racecar Owner/Builder/Racer, & owner of too many Bolts per SWMBO (she who must be obeyed!)

He should have taken the impact gun away from him, as it's obvoius that he didn't know how to use it. That's what I do when I get rookies that overtorque wheels, make 'em put 'em on BY HAND for a few days. That usually fixes the overtorqueing issues.
We use the torque sticks in the shop I work for, most fo the guys use the shop provided sticks, not sure of the brand, I have my own set from Accu-Torq. I've used them both dry and lubed, seems to not make much difference in accuracy. However, I've been doing it long enough to have a feel for the tool and what it's doing.

I almost always put a drop or two of oil (motor oil) on the wheel studs. I also never use an impact to fully tighten lug nuts, but prefer to snug them up by hand (usually with a four way).

(I have also never used a torque wrench to tighten lug nuts)

I have not had any problems yet, and have owned many vehicles since 1972. On the other hand, I am very careful in my tightening sequence. I always torque lug nuts across from each other and never in a rotational pattern. When I'm done, I always double check to insure that I didn't miss any.

I am not saying my methods are text book approved, but they have been working well for me.

John

Wow, what an array of opinions, but I haven't seen anyone address the problem of trying to get an over torqued, dry, rusty lug nut off that an impact won't even break loose.
That is the reason I have for putting some lube on wheel studs.
The experts can say what ever they want, but in my world with salt on the roads and rust on studs I don't put them on dry and have been doing that for over 40 years with no problems.
A buddy came over last week with his truck and we fought to get two lug nuts off, they were put on dry.
Over the years I have used different lubes, but never dry.


The biggest problem I have is that the expert is not there to help me when his advice fails.

Dan

Amen to that!
When they will not break loose, time for the "hot wrench" ox/acc. torches or propane.
It burns paint and weakens the nuts and studs so you must not over do it. Just enough heat to shift the bond of rust on the threads inside. No need to heat red hot. several heat cycles with WD-40 or liquid wrench in between. Then some old motor oil when it starts to move. Caveat:It is possible to do more damage if you are not careful.

Then there is the mini-grinder w/cutoff wheel, drill 1/8 holes in nut, followed by the big chisel and mini-sledge.

I agree with you Dan, once I had done this hard task with rusty nuts, I WILL NEVER PUT NUTS ON DRY AGAIN,ON ANY VEHICLE, EVER!

-Rick M.

I agree with Glasman. Plus here is a little something to stimulate the conversation. When you use a bolt or screw when you tighten it you slightly strech the bolt or screw. While you don't think of "strechiness" going to the molecular or atomic level it seems that it may. Ok, that means when you tighten a bolt it causes it to be affected with stresses that causes it to loose some of the strength that the bolt has. I have seen recommendations that after one use that a bolt be replaced. So my question is - why after 30 40 50 60 plus years the lug stud remains serviceable?

The only times I've had wheel thimbles or nuts stuck is due to some moron putting them on at full power with an air gun and then hammering on it after it has contacted, as longbox stated I have a feel for the tool, its tough to try to convey that feel over to people that don't have the experiance, I'm here in lovely Ca. so rust and salt isn't a problem, but in the mid to eastern parts of the country I would most likely use a couple drops of oil on the stud, never sieze after a few years just gets semi hard.

When I bought Tater, at least half of the nuts wouldn't budge, even using a 1" impact at 110PSI on the hose. I gave in and did it the semi-easy way. I took the hubs apart (needed to anyway).

I used a motorcycle/ATV lift to slide the rear duals, brake drum and hub off in one piece, then used an engine hoist to lift them into my small truck. Took them along with the front wheel-drum-hub assemblies to the local tire shop where they applies the "OMG that's HUGE" 2" splined truck impact wrench and popped them apart sweet as you please.
Upon realization that I could have done this SO much sooner, my sore back promptly cramped up in retailiation.

Since I use my old beast as a work truck I'll be taking the wheels off to rotate the rubber and do brake maintenance from time to time, so I'm not terribly worried about siezing. And if they do, that same shop has a mobile service that will come unscrew my fasteners for me.