The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts The Stovebolt Volunteer Fire Department NFPA question

I've got a question for you guys. How much legal authority does NFPA have over fire apparatus? I have a friend who works for a local manufacturer of fire trucks and he said that because of new NFPA mandates that its getting to the point where most trucks are being built on commercial chassis. Its sad to think the day may come when a fire truck won't be built on a Chevrolet, Ford, International chassis.

I’ll give this a shot: NFPA sets the “national standard” for fire operations and equipment thru a consensus view. Not everyone agrees 100% but the majority forms the basis of their standards.

Then all across America, the NFPA standard is published and in some places it is adopted. Everyone is free to choose what of the many standards they will adopt follow or ignore. The problem is that if you choose to ignore the “standard” and bad things happen, you are usually liable in a lawsuit. (My soapbox comment: Bad things happen, people die and somebody is usually to blame for it and those folks need to be held accountable for defective equipment or practices that are not safe.) Apparatus manufactures and others including cities and states do not want to expose themselves to additional financial risk needlessly so they adopt the NFPA standards they feel provides them the best protection from lawsuits. Maybe that is why they are moving away from commercial frames.

I hope that answers your question.

Thanks Bill
That is exactly the way its been presented to me. Its a shame that things have gotten this way, "get a pound of flesh" from someone or someplace when something bad happens. More lawyer stuff and politics. Costs are out of control and fire appartatus / trucks as we know them here will be gone forever.

Don

One of the many things that is actually kind of funny is one situation we found on our Dept with flashlights. I can go to any hardware store and by a flashlight that is Identical to one in many of our supplier catalogs. The ones in the catalogs are on average more expensive because of the lil "NFPA Approved" sticker that is on them. Even though they are the exact same lights. we have found the exact same thing with Ladders also. A "lil giant" ladder is usaually about 1-2 hundred dollars more from a dept supplier that to get on from a normal store.
The NFPA is basically the OSHA of the fire service world. According to the standards the put in place. There should be lil to no accidents and if there is one, it can prevent lawsuits if the standards are being followed. Sorry If I'm redundant on everything Virginiafiretruck said but those are just a couple of situations we have noticed on our dept.

As an NFPA member, they set the rules, the insurance companies enforce the rules thru listing agencies. The product is listed with UL and FM, not the path to market.

If the product is listed with UL and/or FM to meet the requirements of the appropriate NFPA code, then the product is listed by the manufacturer, regardless if you buy it from a catalog or a store. However if the product is listed by the distributor, then it carries the distributors markings and/or unique product identifier. This is the only method in which a path to market can be listed.

regarding chassis, GM, Ford, international etc still make commercial chassis. Other manufacturers such as Sterling, PACCAR, Volvo, Diamler, Spartan, KME, Pierce, E-one all make commercial chassis for fire apparatus.

Interesting topic for sure....just curious Scott, do you work for a manufacturer as an engineer?
I'm on a Police and Fire committee and have had a real education of the NFPA doctrine.
Don

I used to work for Cummins Firepower in DePere Wisconsin. I was the Product Manager for the product line which required me to sit on NFPA 20, NFPA 37, UL STP 448, UL STP 218 and the NEMA committees for products that were listed with UL and FM.

Now I push custom cooling systems and heat exchangers to the worlds OEM's

Not being actually IN the fire service, I'll throw in a thought or two on this "hot" topic.

Nobody has brought up what I find the most troubling aspect of the NFPA. My understanding is that the NFPA codes are written by committees, which consist largely of members of the companies that sell to the Emergency Services Industry, and thereby stand to benefit the most from implementation of the "standard". It's a TREMENDOUS conflict of interest, in my mind.

Yes, fire apparatus and equipment has been greatly improved and made safer through the efforts of the NFPA. BUT, the cost of equipment has skyrocketed, so that many, if not most, rural departments can't afford the "code compliant" equipment to begin with.

THEN, when "stuff happens", as it does in this life and death service, the department is blamed for not meeting a standard that's financially impossible for them to afford. Of course, the lawsuits only serve at further hurting both the people who serve, out of a sense of duty and altruism, as well as the people of the district, who get even LESS protection.

As my buddy who sells in the industry says, "It's a screwy industry".

OK, I'll stop ranting now . . .

-Michael

Yes Micheal, That was the point I was tryin to make. with the standards put on everything "fire service" equipment becomes more expensive even tho most of it is no different than equipment that can be purchased anywhere else. I realize what Scott is saying too but in my honest opinion, when they slap the NFPA Aproved sticker on it the price goes up. I bought a Flashlight at my work (a John Deere dealership) for $15 the same one with the NFPA sticker on it thru a supplier was between $25 & $30 dollars. I realize the suppliers set their prices and not the NFPA but The MArk up just for fire service is a bit ridiculous in most cases.

Actually, the NFPA committees are made up of manufacturer representatives, enforcement officials, insurance agencies, contractors and the general population. There is a balance mix that needs to be maintained. If the committee gets out of balance, there is a call for membership. If the call for membership is not maintained, then someone needs to step down to maintain balance.

Do yourself a favor, an NFPA sticker does not make the product listed. Ask the supplier to show the paperwork for the product listing.