The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop Fuel injection for my 235.

I decided to work on some of the peripheral items for my fuel injection system while I am waiting for the throttle bodies and intake manifold to arrive. First item is the distributor. I need a magnetic trigger signal for the ECM and a large cap to prevent arc over from the HEI system I am going to use. Since I am trying to keep this as nostalgic looking as possible a GM HEI is out. Too modern looking. I decided to marry a Chevy 235 distributor bottom to a Ford Duraspark top. I am going to use a GM ESC module mounted in a remote location. Timing advance will be controlled by the ECM. Attached are some pictures.

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How about the small cap HEI used on the 173 V-6? Looks nothing like the big cap version.

The small cap HEI depends on very tight clearance between the rotor and the cap to prevent arc over. I am not that confident in my machine work. I could not figure out a way to check the clearances after the cap is put on. Besides, the Ford Duraspark distributors are a lot easier (ie: cheaper) to find around here. Other than that it would be a good choice and would probably look a bit more like the stock distributor.

buy a second cap and cut it apart to check your clearances

I'm interested in the EFI set-up. Things like what components you are using, 4BBL manifold or side draft, etc. Please keep us informed on your progress.

Are you planning to use a sequential EFI with individual injectors for each cylinder, or a TBI? If it's got individual injectors, how do you plan to deal with the siamesed intake ports serving more than one cylinder?
Jerry

Will do Cletus. The plan at this time (subject to change) is to use a vintage Edmund's dual carb intake manifold with Retrotek throttle bodies. The electronics and sensors are all GM including the ECU which came out of a 92 Camaro 3.1 liter V6. Ignition will be via the Chevy/Ford distributor described earlier. At this time I am waiting on the throttle bodies.

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Jerry, The ECM I am using came off a port injected, speed density, non sequential system. All the injectors fire at the same time. My injectors will be in the throttle bodies. Two injectors per throttle body. (4 total) Although it is not a factor on my application I think a sequential system would work with 2 injectors per runner.(6) If the injector pulses are timed correctly the fuel would be drawn into the proper cylinder since they fire at different times. This is all speculation on my part based on my experience with fuel injection.

[quote=Diceman]Will do Cletus. Sorry Cletis!

The injectors on a non-sequential system pulse half of them at each revolution of the engine, unless you've got some really oddball system I've never heard of. At least all the GM systems I've been repairing and teaching for the past 30 years work that way. A sequential port setup has the injector nozzle pointed at the tulip section of the intake valve, and fires the injector a fraction of a crankshaft turn before the valve opens. This results in a fog of fuel behind the valve at the beginning of the intake stroke, which gets drawn into one cylinder as the valve opens. In your situation, it would probably be much simpler to go with a throttle body injector since there's no need to dedicate a single injector shot to any particular cylinder. TBI systems are much simpler to wire and control, also.
Jerry

Jerry, There is a common misconception that all non sequential multi port systems on V configured engines fire 1 bank at a time. This is probably because they have a separate wiring harness and fuse for each bank. The fact is that most of them fire all of the injectors at the same time. Although I am using a multi point ECM and multi point type fuel injectors my system will operate as a throttle body system. The injectors are mounted inside what appear to be Stromberg carburetors, but they are in fact throttle bodies.

OK, I guess they must have changed the computer programming since my brother helped write it a few years ago.
Jerry

I see that you are not convinced. I did not say all of them were NOT configured to to fire bank to bank, only most of them. Did your brother write the programming for all the different systems out there? I don't know how much you know about fuel injection, but I do know what I know and I hope to prove you wrong with the successful completion of this project. In the meantime I offer the following article for your consideration. Seventh paragraph to save you time.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/49279_fuel_injection_basics/index.html

You have to address the fuel system in terms of providing enough pressure to run FI and a fuel return line from the injection system. You also have to address a filter of some sort or you will foul up the injectors in no time. What's the plan there ?

Those are pretty neat looking.
I don't care much for gas engines any more, but I'll be following your progress. Looks like you'll have a unique setup when done.

Grigg

I am going to run a new 3/8" fuel line to the throttle bodies and use the original 5/16" line for the return. I haven't decided where I am going to put the fuel pump. In the tank is preferable, but in-line is easier. Wherever it is it will be well filtered with pre and post filters. This is my fourth fuel injection project on engines that were not originally injected so I am well aware of what is required. I have a very cool idea for the fuel pressure regulator. If it works I will show it to you later. If it doesn't work I will destroy the evidence as usual.

Fuel pressure regulator is done.

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I got my throttle position sensor mounted to one of the Retrotek throttle bodies tonight. One more item out of the way.

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I got my stub harness, connectors, and terminals from EFI Connection today. Very nice! I furnished them with a list of the circuits that I wanted and they installed a 6' lead in the 3 ECM connectors with the proper GM wire colors. They also furnished the sensor connectors and terminals for the other ends. This way I can route the harness where I like without any splices.

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Diceman,

How's the progress of you EFI coming I haven't heard anything lately. Inquiring minds want to know.

cool, someone actually working with the Mooneyes EFI. If you need a simple pump, pull one from under a '92 or '93 VW fox. The setup has a low pressure pump to feed a sump and a high-pressure bosch pump to feed the injectors, all in a complete easy to mount kit including a filter.

Diceman, How's your EFI project going?

Sorry for my absence. I wish I had read your post about the fuel pump earlier Scott. I am not using the Mooneyes system, although I think the throttle bodies are the same. I bought them from Retrotek. With the help of a good friend my system will be run with a GM TPI ECM. The sensors are all off the shelf GM or Ford components. I am planning on doing some long distance cruises and want to be able to find parts easily.
There has been some progress. I have resolved the following issues- IAC, TPS, MAP, IAT, ECT, knock sensor, HEI module, and throttle linkage. I am currently working on the fuel system. Progress will be slow for a while because I will have to fabricate the new dual exhaust system (mandrel bent stainless steel) and install the gear vendors overdrive unit. I have posted some pictures for your approval. Please let me know what you think.

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looking good. Im just finished putting a TBI setup on my 54 235. I used a TBI unit off of a 4.3L V6 and a 3.1L V6 TBI computer out of a chevy lumina van (4.3 computer seemed a bit much). So far so good. Nice thing about the 3.1 computer over the 4.3 is that it has a output trigger for a cooling fan relay.

If I hadn't already had the Clifford 2/4bbl intake I probably would have tried a dual setup like yours, but still used stock injector units. I came across this link will doing some research. http://www.championparts.com/tbi_applications.pdf

It would certainly be awesome to see more people bringing these inlines into the new age.

Also, I read and had a few people tell me that the MAP sensor should be mounted so the vacuum port is facing down, like it is stock. I didn't think it would matter but to play it safe I remounted anyways.

So what all sensors are you using and what are you going to have done to the ecm?

The idle air control is an after market housing that I had left over from a previous project with a GM IAC motor. The MAP, ECT, IAT, and knock sensor, are all GM TPI parts. The TPS is a Ford truck unit because it was easier to mount. The distributor is a Frankenstein unit with the Chevy bottom and a Ford Duraspark top and a remote mount GM HEI module. A good friend of mine is handling the ECM mods. He has the ability to log and modify the fuel and spark tables and burn a custom chip for me. It may take some time to get it tuned properly, but it should be worth it.
I am installing a Gear Vendors overdrive unit also and he tells me we can control it with the torque converter lock up circuit since it is electrically shifted.
How do you like your system compared to the carb. Have you noticed any improvement in power, drivability, or fuel economy?

I was just on the Mega Squirt website and they make a DIY stand alone kit that offers almost infinite tuning capability. It is set up to be quite simple. You guys with your own throttle bodies are already way ahead of the game. It is definately worth checking out.

I was checking out the Mega Squirt system but for the price of $500 (computer, MS to GM747 ecm, wideband o2) its my absolute last resort. I really would like to make this a true junkyard TBI setup.

Ive been searching the local u-pull-it yard and online thinking that GM would of put a TBI setup on the 3.8L or similar engine before they went to a MPI (or whatever they call it) setup. A 3.8L would be have been alot closer of a match for the 235 (3.9L)

So, could you explain what that fuel pressure regulator is, please? It looks an awful lot like a mechanical fuel pump..., which is good!

For my fuel injection system I need a high pressure fuel pump (43 psi) which is electric. Also required is a fuel pressure regulator to maintain a constant pressure in the system. Most or all fuel injected engines use a diaphragm type regulator with fuel pressure from the pump on one side of the diaphragm and a spring on the other. When the fuel pressure overcomes the spring pressure a valve is lifted off its seat and excess fuel is allowed to return to the tank. The spring tension determines the fuel pressure. The fuel enters the regulator through one of the A/N type fittings on the side and exits to the fuel injectors on the other. The excess fuel is returned to the tank via the hose barb on the bottom. Since I do not need the old mechanical fuel pump I decided to cut the top off of it and mount the regulator in its place. This kills 2 birds with one stone. A mount for the regulator and a block off plate for the hole in the block. Plus I am trying to keep the truck looking like a vintage 60's style hot rod and at first glance the regulator looks like the stock fuel pump. I hope that answerers your question.

I worked on the fuel lines today. Had to modify the gas tank filler neck to accommodate the return line from the supply tank and the vent line for the EVAC system.

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What I liked about the Mega Squirt is that you can pretty much set it up and program it any way you want. You don't have reconfigure for all the factory emmisions and all the other pain in the but stuff that goes along with it. You can even keep the oe distributor if you want. Of course you still have to use a plethera of sensors and want not to make the system work. I really do like the work you've done. You seem to have thought it all through, I hope it works great when you're done so we can all copy it.

Whitedog, Thanks for your kind words.
There are several after market systems available these days that are good and getting better. None of them however can compare with the OEM units for sophistication and reliability. The problem with the OEM's is the difficulty in tuning the system for your particular vehicle. Fortunately I have a good friend who can monitor, data log, and reprogram the GM units. If it were not for him I would be using an aftermarket system also. The main goals of this project are to make it very reliable and easy to service. I am trying to use all OEM components so I can go into the local auto parts and get anything I need including a new ECM. The only custom part will be the PROM in the ECM and I will always carry a spare copy.
The EVAC system is not required for the system to operate properly. We are adding it in hopes that it will keep the gas fumes down and provide better gas mileage.

Nice idea!
What regulator have you used, how did you find it? Is it OEM or aftermarket? In one word, how do I make the same thing for my 250ci L6?
Thanks for the detailed info!

I cut he fuel pump off just above the base. Then i drilled and tapped a couple of 10-24 holes. The following picture shows it pretty well.

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Of course, rebuilding a couple Rochester B's for about 20 bucks is pretty easy too. Just my 2 cents

Since my son bought my oldest grand daughter a Jr Dragster (2 races 2 podiums) I haven't had much time to work on my truck. I have been helping fabricate parts for the chassis and drive train. I was able to finish up a few odds and ends on the truck last week though. The plumbing for the fuel system and charcoal canister are finished. I scrapped the throttle linkage that I had installed earlier. There was too much monkey motion involved. I was able to retain the original gas pedal, but everything else was changed. The cruise control hookup is incorporated into the gas pedal arm under the dash, which allows mounting the control unit inside out of site. I mounted the ECM and moved the MAP sensor and remounted it with the vacuum nipple pointing down as per drummin52's suggestion. Thanks for the heads up. Got the oil filter moved and plumbed also.

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more in the range of $40 ($20 each) and you will never get them close to the smooth idle of F.I.

I decided to go ahead and install the A/C condenser now instead of waiting until later. Once I get it running I know I won't want to shut it down again. While I have the radiator out I decided to build a proper ignition timing pointer on the harmonic balancer.

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Sorry it has been so long since my last post. I have been very busy at work plus racing Jr Dragsters with my son and grand daughter. There has been much progress on the project. Some good and some bad. Unfortunately I have not had time to post about it. The truck is running and we have logged about 300 miles on it while experimenting with different computers and tunes. We have learned a lot about idle air strategy. We have also tried both TPI and TBI computers. We are going to proceed with the TPI unit out of a 92 Camaro. We have a good basic tune that starts and runs very well. Once we get the permanent wiring harness done we are going to install a wide band oxygen sensor so we can fine tune for power and fuel economy. We have been running with a temporary harness so we could switch out the computer easily. The torque converter circuit in the computer controls the Gear Vendors overdrive flawlessly. We have it setup to engage at 60 MPH and drop out at 45 MPH. My friend Greg who is doing all the computer programming even programmed a passing gear into it. Once we get the EFI dialed in I am going to install a McCullough supercharger on it.