The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop '41 trans/rear ?'s

Got a few questions here for my upgrade. I'm going with a 1960 235 and keeping the original bell housing and pedal setup. I'm hearing good things about upgrading to the S-10 T5 trans. Since I don't have one to stare and compare to, how much modification is required to get the T5 bolted up to the original bell housing and everything else to work? My next question is on the rear end. I have a few Chevy LUV trucks that have good rear ends and since they are 6 lug I can keep my stock wheels. I haven't gone to measure yet because they are way back in the woods. I was hoping someone may have looked at this as a possible donor and can answer me. I'm hoping it will be close. You can see where I'm heading with this truck. I'm just doing a little upgrading while 99% of the people will never know it's not stock.

Thanks,
Mike

Thanks in ad

The original bellhousing will have the wrong bolt pattern. You will need a later, say a 49b up. The next problem is that the 49 up will not have an area to bolt the brake/clutch assembly to. You can make an adapter plate. Several folks on this site have in the past. If this is somthing you are interested in I can provide a few pictures.
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Rick
http://community.webshots.com/scrip...photoID=25442874&security=DVrSWUFkJg

Yes, I want to keep the original bell housing and pedal setup. Does anybody have a pattern for an adapter plate that I can use and can you tell me what year T5 I need to look for and how to date it? What about the Chevy LUV rear end? Have any of you used it before and if not what open drive shaft 6 lug rear end did you use? Rick, I can't link to your pictures.

Mike

Sorry about the link, try this one and look under "Truck Stuff". It's a pedal mounting bracket I made.
http://community.webshots.com/user/rlrick

I have not had experence using a t-5. I used an SM 420. I used my 46 rear end housing and mounted a 56 center pumpkin in it then welded on solid purches. I found a drive line from a 74 1/2 ton that was just the right length. I have since removed the engine and trans and went with a V-8 and auto but for the the time I used the set-up it worked fine.
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Rick

Mike- I think Buffalo Enterprises {(360)652-7684} in Arlington, WA. makes the adapter you are looking for. I also believe that Joe Fuchs in Texas (sixcylindersovertexas on here) is in the process of using this same adapter on a '37 to keep the stock bellhousing and pedals, but adapt the T-5. Maybe Joe has his ears on and can jump in here?
The adapter will adapt the bolt pattern and the T-5 front bearing retainer diameter down to fit the '47 and earlier bellhousing. If I remember right, the Buffalo adapter is priced pretty affordable too.

Thanks, great info. So I can bolt a later hogs head onto my '41-'46 rear housing? Do you guys know the range of what will fit?

Mike

I believe it's 55 2nd to around 61. It needs to be a 1/2 ton. Also remember you need to weld in solid spring purches.
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Rick

Please excuse my ignorance but I'm trying to learn as much as I can from you guys. Why would I need to change or weld in spring perches if I'm using the original rear end housing? It may be a dumb question but I don't know.

Thanks,
Mike

The original spring purches are the type that allow the housing to rotate as the axel moves up and down as you go over bumps. This is necessary because it only has one u joint inside of the closed drive line. It pivots at the front only. You will need to remove these rotating purches and replace them with some from a trailer supply or another after market supplier. If you look at your original ones you will see they have a grease fitting on them.
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Rick

I'm not quite following this post. Let me understand - you have a 41 1/2 ton and you plan to put a 60-235 in it. You want to go with a T-5 five speed. Right?

First of all there are a couple of good articles in the "Tech Tips" part of this site that will give you some basics on the T-5 swap.

Your pedals mount on your bell housing, but the T-5 won't bolt up to your bell housing, so you have two choices: #1 - Swap out to a 49-54 bell housing. If you do that, the pedal assembly will not bolt up to the bell housing so you will either have to hang your pedals from the firewall or weld "bosses" to your bell housing for the pedal assemble to bolt to it. You could buy a bell housing from Buffalo Enterprises which has the "bosses" already welded to it. #2 - Buy a transmission adapter from Buffalo Enterprises. You will then be able to bolt your transmission to your bell housing, use your pedal assembly. You can also adapt your emergency brake to it.

If you choose #1, you will also have to shorten the input shaft of the T-5 transmission 1/2" and the splines will have to be increased 1/2" on the input shaft. If you choose #2, you will not have to shorten the input shaft due to the 1/2" thickness of the adapter plate. It will compensate for the 1/2" difference in the length of the input shaft and the length of the splines on the input shaft.

A good overview of most of this process is shown on:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/schickling/1940Chevy/index.html

You'll notice on Mr. Schikling's site he also upgraded to a dual master cylinder, which is not a bad idea. If you don't upgrade, you will have to make a plate to be able to bolt the two side mounts of the master cylinder bracket to the transmission. It might be possible to forgo that step and just let the master cylinder bracket be secured by the three bolts that mount it to the bell housing. You will also notice that Mr. Schickling decided on the bell housing with the "bosses" welded on it.

If you decide to do this, you will also have to go to an "open" drive line with a properly geared rear axle, such as an S-10 six lug, to match your six lug front hubs (drums).

That's pretty much the basics of the swap.
If I have left anything out, I'm sure someone can chime in and pick it up for you.

I'm in the process of doing this to my 37 now and I can tell you that it's a fairly easy swap -just allot of work.

Good luck and if you have any questions, email me and I'll do my best to help.

OK, this sounds like what I plan to do. I thought all S-10's were 5 lug. What models were 6 lug? Is finding and modifying an S-10 rear easier than swapping the hogs head and welding perches on the original housing? Also on the T5, what year models do I want to look for? If it's already out of the donor truck how do I date it? What numbers do I look for? Can someone post a nice close up pic. of the one I want for my swap? I'm saving all this info. that you all are giving me so I can take it with me when I go hunting for these parts.

Thanks again,
Mike

Two wheel drive S-10's are six lug, four wheel drive S-10's are five lug.

You can't use your existing rear end because it is a "closed" drive line. This means the rear axle and drive shaft are one piece. It cannot be altered to work. You still need a new rear axle and drive shaft that attaches at the transmission and at the rear axle. A closed drive line attaches at the transmission only.

On the T-5 trannys, you probably want a mid 80's to mid 90's. Probably the two best choices are the ones Schickling shows in his web site. The is a rather lengthy listing of the different kinds on the Inliners website:

http://www.inliners.org/

All of the T-5's in S-10 Blazers had numbers on their transmissions. They are "stickers" (white paper and green letters) and are on the top of the tranny.

Here's where I will ask someone else to give you some thoughts on identifying rear axles. I know that there are about eight different rear axle ratios, but other than pulling the cover and counting teeth, I'm not sure how to identify them. Maybe someone can teach us together. I do know it is a good fit for your truck. I also know that the right combination of transmission and rear axle is personal taste. I personally like the 1352.145 T-5 transmission with the 3.42:1 axle.

I have not seen a six lug either, but have read on this site that two wheel S-10's are six lug. Just repeating what I read here.

Maybe someone else can chime in and give us the full story.

That should be "two wheel drive" S-10's.

Well, my original rear end housing on the '41 and '46 will unbolt at the front side with 10 bolts thus removing the closed drive line. I checked my '57 Bel Air rear and it doesn't un bolt that way. I would need to know what model pickup rear end hogs head would unbolt and attach to my original housing making it an open drive. I'm pretty sure also that all 2wd S-10's were 5 lug and I was thinking that the 4wd's I have looked at were 6 lug. Whatever I use will have to be a 6 lug rear because I'm keeping the stock wheels. I've been told already that the '60-'69's will be too wide. The only other choices that I have here without going out and hunting is a '79 Chevy LUV truck that has the 6 lug pattern and it's factory leaf springs also. I haven't gone over to the farm yet to measure it. I also know that the Nissan pickups have a 6 lug rear ends too.

Mike

The "Hogs head" or "Pumpkin" from a 55 to about 61 1/2 ton is the same as the 46 housing. I used a 56 with 3:38 gears. Take another look at the pics from my post above. You can see my 46 with the 56 pumpkin installed. I also added lowering blocks. The "Bracket" I made to attach the brake and clutch pedle assembly was bolted to the later bell housing. The adapter Berry Weeks spoke about sounds like a great deal. I made mine because I kind of like doing stuff like that.
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Rick

Well, guys, it's like anything else. There are several ways to get there. I kind of just thru out the way I'm getting there.

I am currently running a 54 car Powerglide rear in my truck. When I dumped the 4:11.1 rear end in 1982, I was not aware of any other choice. Later, Patrick came up with his new rear gears. Now is the first I've heard of changing out rear end parts with other models. It would be interesting to see a list or hear if anyone has done that and just what rear end guts will fit into a 41 housing, or any of the closed drive line housings. I know allot of people who have always pulled the whole rear end and torque tube for the lack of being able to use it. It sems to me if you had to pull the torque tube off and the pumpkin out, unless you were keeping the 4:11.1 gear, all that's left is the axles. I would think you'd have to be pretty lucky to find another donor rear end who's parts would bolt in. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Just trying to learn.

I have asked the question more than once about the five lug and six lug S-10 rear ends, but I may have gotten it confused. I know there is a six lug S-10 rearend.

The main reason I went with changing out the pumpkin to an open Driveline type was:
I was able to keep the e-brake system,I kept 6 lug,and it was the correct width. The first trans I went with was an SM420 out of a 65 1/2 ton behind a 55 235. I have since went with a V8 and a TH350. The rear end is holding up fine but I don't push it very hard. One of the best parts of these old truck is that there are a number of ways to upgrade them. It's just a matter of choice
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Rick

If I keep the housing and put the open pumpkin in how can I get rid of the old huck style brakes?

Mike

Also one more question on the T5. Which setup will keep the T5 more forward toward the firewall: 1) keeping my original bell housing and using the adapter plate from Buffalo or
2) using a later bell housing and adapting the pedal assembly to it?

Mike

I have not seen the adapter from Buffalo but I would think either way you go the position of the shifter would be close to the same. A bolt pattern adapter like the one from Buffalo may set the trans back a little. As far as Huck style brakes. Mine seem to work just fine. I did add a power boster and duel master cyl. I do intend to upgrade to disk up front somtime in the future. The only drawback I can see right now is that the Hucks do not have self adjusters.
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Rick

The Buffalo Enterprises adapter is 1/2" thick. It will move the transmission 1/2" further back on your currect bellhousing. The total move back will be about 9 1/4".

I'm not positive that the 49-54 bell housing is the same "depth" as the 41 bellhousing. If it is, the move back would be about 8 3/4", but that depends on that bellousing "depth".

Wow, that's getting pretty far back. I haven't went out in the rain yet to go measure where my shifter comes up now. How close is that getting to the seat? Is it going to look out of place that far back?

Mike

In my 37, that puts it about 5" from the seat base. I figure after I bend the shift stick forward and then slightly back, I'll get it in a comfortable spot and it should look good.