The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 216 Help

Hi, I need help waking up my 216. I have replaced the battery, battery cables, cap, rotor, plugs, points, and coil. She just spins and spins but doesn't turn over. I've checked for spark, and there is some, not a ton but it is jumping about 3/16". Any ideas???

NW5window,

Welcome to the Stovebolt. To make the thing work you only need three things...compression, fuel and spark. We can assume you have compression so you need to verify the other two items.

If you dribble a small amount of fuel into the carburetor and spin it over with the key ON, it should snort or pop. This means you have spark at the plugs and fuel might be the issue.

If you try this drill and it's a no-go on the snorting then you might not have adequate fire to the plugs. Even if it were timed incorrectly, it should snort or backfire a bit.

I would check the point gap VERY carefully. This can affect the strength of your spark. Verify that your firing order is proper..153624 and that the wires parade around the cap CW in the proper order. Bring cylinder #1 up on TDC and take a peek into the viewing hole for the BB. This gets your timing into the ballpark.

Make sure the fuel is reaching and filling the carburetor bowl. Toggle the throttle while looking down the carburetor throat with a flashlight. You are looking for a hefty squirt of fuel from the accelerator pump.

Make sure you are trying to start it with the key ON..I think some rigs have a unconventional ON position of the key. Good luck and let us know the outcome.

Stuart

I think he said it spins but doesn't turn over. That sounds to me like a starter problem. Am I correct on this?

Fred,

Good eye! I'm going to hazard a guess he means the engine just spins and spins but doesn't turn over meaning it doesn't start, but we all know I have been wrong many times before!

Stuart

Thanks Stuart! I replaced the starter and starter switch two days ago, and checked the spark at the coil yesterday, it is there just very weak. I have tried starter fluid in the carb with no luck. I sort of jimmy-rigged a tube to allow gas to flow into the carb as my next step. I'll double check the wiring order though...I think mine is set up incorrectly. I believe I am firing 142536...thank you for correcting me on that. I'm a rookie at this so I will have many more questions for you as I continue to restore my 1950. Thanks again for everyone's input. Zach

OK so you have replaced the points. If you set up the timing so that the points just open when the steel ball is aligned, it will be hard to start. The timing should be set at the triangle "UDC" which is just before the ball. I would be careful with the starting fluid. That could be harmful to an old 216.

Thanks...I'll check that out today. What should I be using if starter fluid isn't the greatest?

I think you need to have a regular supply of gas. If you don't have a good tank I would use a tube from a gas can to the fuel pump. Also, the choke needs to be mostly closed for initial startup.

So I've checked my firing order and everything seems to be correct. I would check on the timing but I still don't have a spark at the plugs, only at the coil. I've checked for voltage before and after the coil and it all looks normal. I've heard that it might be because my distributor was put in at the wrong time, (timing issue)? Is this correct? From what I've been told the coil is new, it's 12 volt and needed an external resistor which I have installed.

NW5window,

You say you have spark at the coil. When you pull the coil wire from the distributor and hold it near a ground and turn the engine over with the key ON you get a pretty good ZAP to ground...is this what you have done? That spark should easily jump 1/4 inch or so.

If the coil is new, there could be a stencil on the side indicating weather it needs an external resistor or not. You don't want an external resistor if the coil say's 'internally resisted'.

Regardless of timing, if all is well with rotor and cap, a plug wire should show some spark when held near a good ground. If you have this spark, then make sure it's timed properly. You can check your timing pretty close manually...no spark needed.

Stuart

Take a spark plug and lay it on the valve cover or the block. Connect one of the plug wires to it and check for spark that way.

With the six volt system you can hear the starter speed increase as it tries to start. I don't know if the 12v arrangement gives you that clue.

I have more questions... I'm still not getting any spark at the plugs...I have checked my coil and it is getting a nice strong current to it. I have a feeling it is my distributor or rotor, but am not sure. It looks like the previous owner replaced it but the gap from the rotor to the points is close to 3/8" is this normal? I thought at most it should be 1/4".

Change the condensor.

Here's a shot in the dark:

When we first started up our freshly rebuilt 216, we couldn't figure out why we got no spark to the plugs, but had spark at the distributor.

Turns out the original distributors were NOT grounded, because for a few years there was a "polarity-reversing switch" on the starter that took the ground.

Any-who, when we figured it out, we grounded the distributor body (ran a wire from it to a screw on the engine), and we then magically had spark at the plugs!

Just-in-case you might have the same problem . . .

-Michael

Thanks so much I'll give that a try. Where on the distributor body did you attach it to? On the engine side did you attach it to the screw that holds the coil sleeve?

Zach

Zach,

While Michael's note is pertinent for his '44, your '50 rig was way beyond the years of using a polarity reversing switch so I would doubt this is the problem.

Stuart

Alright, but having the wrong answer is no fun at all :mad: until someone comes up with the RIGHT answer. Any luck, Zach?!



-Michael

No luck yet... Come to find out the guy I bought the truck from put in the wrong cap and rotor, so I replaced them, tried to start it, no luck...then I replaced the condenser, but still nothing. There still isn't a spark at the plugs. Please help...any other ideas?? Thanks, Zach

OK, this isn't rocket science. Do you get spark from the coil while turning the engine over? If you can get spark at the end of the coil wire than it is just a matter of finding out what is happening inside the cap.

You mentioned a "gap between the rotor and the points". What are you describing?

Its a long shot but have you checked the battery. I know it turns over but if it turns over slow and has a weak spark at the distributor your battery might not have the power to turn the engine over and create spark all the way to the plugs. Rare I know but I have had it happen to me.

Fred,

I like that.

Stuart

Try this: get out your trusty test light, the one that lights up when it's touched to a voltage source. Even a test light for a 12 volt system will work, it will just burn a little dim on 6 volts. Attach the wire to a good ground, like the coil bracket, for instance. The first thing to do is "test the test light" by touching a known source of voltage like the big battery cable terminal on the starter. It lights up? OK, now to check the primary ignition circuit.

With the ignition switch turned on, touch the test light probe to the (+) terminal of the coil. It should light up. If it doesn't, trace the wire back toward the ignition switch until you find the open circuit. Got light? Now touch the test probe to the (-) terminal. If the points are open, the light should burn. If the points are closed, the light should go out. The same thing should happen at the outside terminal at the distributor, since you're testing the other end of the wire that attaches to the coil (-) terminal.

Another way to check the internal connections in the distributor is to attach the test light wire to a known voltage source (the big battery cable is the best one) so the light will burn when touched to a ground. Remove the primary wire from the coil (-) terminal to the distributor and touch the test light to the outside terminal on the distributor. The light should flash on and off as the points are opened and closed. If the light is on or off continuously, you've mis-wired something during the point installation. It's easy to do!
Jerry

I fixed the gap by replacing the old cap and rotor that were on the distributor. The gap, was the distance from the rotor to the prongs on the cap. Now that I have replaced them there doesn't seem to be any issue there. I then replaced the condenser. My battery should be fine, I have it hooked up to a charger.

Thanks for everyone's advice! I'll try the light test to see if I can find anything wrong.

Zach

Ok so I am still stumped... I have checked everything and I have power up to at least the distributor. I have gone and replaced the points, and compresor again. Now when I tried to start her, still noting, but now there is smoke omiting from the external resistor I have mounted on the wheel well. Any ideas? I have basically replaced everything from the batter, to cables, plugs, and now everything inside the distributor.

Your point installation is incorect. You've managed to get a continuous ground inside the distributor, which is the equivalent of a "points closed" condition all the time. Check to see if the spring that holds the points closed is touching the distributor housing. it's supposed to be insulated so the stationary point is the only ground.
Jerry

Thanks, I'll check my connection. Once I have that fixed will that help with my spark at the plugs?

It will make the coil secondary operate, where the high voltage is generated. As it is now, you're only charging the magnet, never discharging it to make the spark.
Jerry

Easy check You do know when the points open the coil discharges and makes spark so to check take the cap off , put a spark plug on the coil wire end that was pluged into the cap( You can use a spark plug wire ) now take a screw driver and open and close the points if the plug has spark than turn engine over with starter if the plug does not fire than it is You points, gap should be set at 18 tho. when the points are on top of one of the six lobes in the dis. If the pulg does not fire when You open and close with the screwdriver than look for wiring problems, happy hunting , Pete