The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Timing a '51

I'm having trouble getting my 235 timed correctly to even fire. Here is what I have done/replaced so far: First got an all new cap, rotor, points (gapped correctly), plugs and plug wires. Used the typical firing order (153624) and arnged the wires accordingly (in relation to the rotor). We've tried numerous times doing this with no luck, only a few times will one or maybe even two cylinders fire off. Then we found top dead center by me turning the crankshaft from underneath while my friend (just rebuilt a '65 C10) found the top dead center on the compression stroke. Still with no luck we pulled all the plugs to check and see if there was good spark, not only was it good, it was great! It is also getting fuel and air so me and my buddies are completely stumped as to what is wrong. It ran great before I replace these parts but all were worn and needed to be replaced. So as of now I've just gotten it to fire off maybe 3 cylinders in a row and thats it.

Any Ideas?

It is in a cold machine shed [Iowa winters suck ] so maybe that has something to do with it.

I have found TDC before by turning the engine over(by hand) with #1 spark plug out. The compression stroke is the only one that will push air out of the hole. Put your finger over the hole, and when the (compression)air stops, you are at(or very near to) TDC.

Find top dead center on #1 comp. like you did & line up the steel ball on the flywheel with the opening above the starter or if you have the valve cover off watch #6 valves. When one is starting to open & the other is starting to close that is TDC. Remove the dist cap & put #1 plug wire in the hole the rotor is pointing to. Put rest of the wires in the fireing order in the clockwise direction. It "should" run if that is correct.

*Update*

I found the bb on the fly wheel and timed it accordingly with that, Still no luck, not even one cylinder popping off, I have had a mechanic look at it and he seems to think it could be the carb flooding it since when we took a plug out to check for spark tons of fuel was spitted out rather than a mist. Any other suggestions? I ordered a new carb, (since the one on there had a 90 day warranty) so hopefully this will help.

Also any suggestions as to why a master cylinder would not pump, I've rebuilt it over and over again (correctly) and it still doesnt pump. Maybe the end of it is plugged? Thanks for all the suggestions folks!

Top dead centre is not where the BB is located but very close to that there is a triangle labeled UDC for Upper Dead Centre. That is where I would time it to start. After it is running you should use a timing light.

If gas is comeing out the spark plug hole it definitly is flooded. The new carb should cure that & it should have dried out by the time you get it. Be sure you have a filter before the carb. Flooding carb. is almost always caused by dirt in the needle & seat. As far as the master cyl. make shure the pedal rod comes back far enough to let the piston come all the way back. It is best to bench bleed it but if it is on you can do it in the truck. Take the line off the back of the MC & pull the pedal down. Put you finger over the hole & let it back up. Keep doing this till it starts squirting fluid. Then hook up the line & bleed it at the wheels. Some speedy bleeders would help a lot.

When we did our first start-up, I found it was easiest to remove ALL the plugs, which made the engine easy (easier, anyway) to turn over with the fan (turn clockwise as you look at the engine from the front, or turn the fan away from you over the top as you stand by the plugs).
as Wrenchbender says, number 6 is the "sympathetic" cylinder to number one, so that when 1 is at TDC, 6 is in "overlap". Watch for the #6 exhaust valve coming up (closing) and the #6 intake going down (opening), at the same time. When that starts, watch for the TDC mark at the flywheel pointer.

Then replace the plugs & wire the dizzy - should be close-enough to run.

While the plugs are out, dry 'em off maybe - sounds like they're swamped, and I don't think a wet plug will fire. Might be wrong, though . . . Keep at it, you'll get it soon! Pretty good feeling when you do.

Keep us posted!

-Michael

*Update*

Well I got a new carb and charged the battery.... No luck. I talked to the guy who is lettin me work on it in his shed (rebuilds ford tractors [8-N, 3000,4000's]) we tried pull starting it but it just locked up the rear end.

We then pulled the plugs and squirted oil into the pistons (he thought that if it was a 216 it isnt a pressurized oiling system so turing it without it running would have made the cylinders dry and therefore very hard to turn the flywheel and the more work the starter had to do.) another reason it turned over so slowly. So we oiled the walls and put a compression gauge on and checked each cylinder, all were right around 90. not sure if thats good or not but the old man said anything over 100 is great.

So now I'm gonna get a new starter. But do any of you have suggestions as to how to get the top 3/4" bolt off successfully its a darn pain getting any type of wrench back there. Also where could i get a new starter (any part numbers??) its now a 12v system.

Thanks again!

It sounds to me like you could still be 1 full revolution(of the flywheel) out - the bb will be there at the exhaust/intake stroke and the compression/fire stroke. Try putting the plug wires directly across from where they are now - it sounds like the distributor is 180 degrees out of time.

A 6 volt starter will be fine with a 12 v system.

Best thing to do is take the valve cover off and crank engine by hand , in the right direction , when the intake valve closes on #1 cly.watch for the timing mark go slow it will be close than take the dis, cap off and see where the rotor is pointing that is # 1 cly. than do Your 153624 in the right dir. the dis. is turning and You should have it , that is the only way to take the quess work out of it , Pete

This must be very frustrating to you! We'll get to the bottom of it eventually . . .

I would think 90+ would be plenty good enough to start.

Engine needs 2 things to start: Fuel, and Fire.

Fuel: R U confident the new carb is correct? Looking down the throat, does it Squirt fuel when you rapidly open the throttle linkage manually? When you crank it, does it sound like it's got suction through the carb? Is the fuel you're using good? Some people swear against it, but others will try starting fluid. It's more volatile, will fire easier. (Some claim starting fluid is so volatile it will damage your engine . . . I'm skeptical, but not certain.)

Fire: Sure you've got good spark at the distributor end of the coil-to-distributor wire? Sure you've got good spark at each plug wire? (Point gap is at least close to right? Rotor is correct size? Cap is not corroded?) Finally, timing must be correct. Re-read posts to confirm correct setting. It's REALLY EASY to mind-warp and set the timing 180 degrees off. As 54Tow says, the bb only tells you Top Dead Center of #1. It doesn't tell you if it's TDC on the compression stroke, or the exhaust stroke. You have to watch the valves for that, either #1 or #6, as previously posted in this thread.

A good charged battery will make it easier. I doubt your starter is the issue, unless it feels like it's turning too slow. Are the bat. cables clean and well-attached? Ground clean on the frame? Cable clean and tight on the starter?

Timing is still my guess, but then, I'm usually wrong . . .

Just had a thought: Are you certain your exhaust isn't plugged up? Rat's nest, etc.?

Keep at it - you (and US!) will be so thrilled when it finally starts!

-Michael

*Update*

Well not much news to update, but I am trying to replace the starter and am having a hell of a time getting the original one off. Anyone know the part number or what starter would work for this (1951, 3600)? Or any suggestions as to how to get it off, the lower bolt came off easily but that upper bolt (little to no clearance) is being a big headache.

Thanks again all!

Any luck on the starting issue?

-Michael

Nope just ordered a new starter yesterday, should be in tomorrow. But are there any suggestions to getting the old one off? The top bolt is being very tempermental, especially with the lack of space to get a wrench on it. Also does anyone know how to bench test a generator to see if its works?